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\ 


Mo  - 1  • 


SPEECHES 


UPON    THE 


ROMAN    CATHOLIC    CLAIMS: 


DELIVERED  IN  PARLIAMENT, 


BY 

CHARLES   LORD   COLCHESTER, 


IN    THE 


HOUSE  OF  COMMONS  WHEN  SPEAKER, 


AND 


SUBSEQUENTLY  IN  THE  HOUSE  OF  PEERS. 


WITH 


PRELIMINARY  OBSERVATIONS 

UPON  THE  PRESENT  STATE 

OF  THE  ROMAN  CATHOLIC  QUESTION. 


LONDON: 

J.    HATCH ARD    AND    SON,    187,    PICCADILLY. 

1828. 


I* 

\ 


I 


vA 


•WW 


^1^ 


f 


] 


LONDON: 
IKOTSON    AND  PALMER,  PRINTERS,  SAVOY  STREET.  STRAND. 


CONTENTS. 


Page. 


PRELIMINARY  OBSERVATIONS 


SPEECHES 
DELIVERED  IN   THE  HOUSE  OF  COMMONS  :- 
I.     1813.  March  9.— In  Committee  upon   the  State 
of  the  Laws  affecting  His  Majesty's  Ro- 
man Catholic  Subjects 

May  24.— In  Committee  upon  the  Bill  for 

the  Removal  of  the  Civil  and  Military  dis- 
qualifications of  the  Roman  Catholics      . 


II 


H. 


25 


SPEECHES 
DELIVERED  IN  THE  HOUSE  OF  PEERS:- 

III.  1822.  June  20.— On   Second   Reading   of  Bill 

for  admitting  Roman  Catholic  Peers  to 
sit  and  Vote  in  Parliament 

IV.  1824.  iHr/t/ 24.— On  Second  Reading  of  Bills  for 

granting  to  English  Roman  Catholics  the 
Elective  Franchise,— And  for  rendering 
them  eligible  to  Civil  Offices 

V.  1825.  May  17.— On  Second  Reading  of  Bill  for  the 

removal  of  the  Disqualifications  of  the 
Roman  Catholics  .  .  .  • 
VL  1828.  June  10. -On  Motion  to  concur  with  the 
House  of  Commons  in  a  Resolution  deli- 
vered at  a  Conference  "  to  take  into  con- 
sideration the  Laws  affecting  His  Majesty's 
Roman  Catholic  Subjects  in  Great  Britain 
and  Ireland." 


43 


61 


7a 


97 


SCjV^V 


/ 


PRELIMINARY 


OBSERVATIONS. 


/ 


^> 


The  state  of  the   Laws   affecting  his  Majesty's 
Roman  Catholic  subjects  has  now  for  many  years, 
and  more    especially  since  the  Union  with  Ire- 
land, become  the  subject  of  proposed  Legislation  ; 
hrough  the  greater  part  of  which  time,  from  the 
Office  which   I   then  held,  my  attention  was  ne- 
cessarily  and  unremittingly  bestowed  upon  the 
various  Measures  submitted  to  the  consideration 
of  the  House  of  Commons.    Ill  health  having  af- 
terwards occasioned  my  removal  from  that  House 
of  Parliament,   and  obliged    me  also   to    reside 
abroad  for  some  years,   and  chiefly  in  countries 
where  the  Roman  Catholic  Religion  is  dominant, 
the  same  important  subject  was  not  absent  from 
my  thoughts.     And  having   since   attended  the 
many  discussions  of  the  same  subject  in  the  Upper 
House  of  Parliament,  where  I  have  occasionally 
thought   it  my  duty  also  to  take  part  in  the  de- 
bates upon  it,  the  Result  of  the  fullest  consider- 
ation which  I  have  been  able  to  bestow  upon  this 
important  question,  is  a  sincere  conviction,-— That 

B 


\ 


3 


with  respect  to  the  permanent  Principles  and 
Policy  which  ought  to  govern  our  Legislation,  there 
can  be  no  just  cause  for  doubting  upon  the  course 
which,  in  conformity  to  the  established  Consti- 
tution and  Laws  of  the  British  Empire,  it  is  most 
expedient  to  adopt. 

According  to  the  British  Constitution,  as  esta- 
blished upon  the  double  basis  of  the  Reformation 
and  the  Revolution,  it  appears  to  me,  that  the  Go- 
vernment and  Parliament  must  ever  be  wholly  Pro- 
testant,— That  no  Political  Power  can  with  safety 
to  the  State  be  conceded  to  his  Majesty's  Roman 
Catholic  subjects ; — That  against  the  misuse  of 
Political  Power  by  Roman  Catholics  in  our  Pro- 
testant Representative  Constitution,  there  is  no 
effectual  security  but  their  Exclusion  ; — and  That 
the  elective  franchise,  prematurely  granted  to 
the  forty-shilling  freeholders  of  Ireland,  must  be 
withdrawn  and  withholden,  until  they  can  be 
rescued  from  their  present  slavish  subjection  to 
the  Roman  Catholic  Clergy;  and  until  by  im- 
proved habits  of  life,  resulting  from  a  sounder 
education  and  regular  employment  in  profitable 
labour,  (for  which  the  means  are  not  wanting,) 
they  shall  become  an  independent,  industrious, 
and  peaceable  Yeomanry,  like  those  of  their 
kindred  class  in  the  rest  of  the  United  king- 
dom. The  reasons  and  proofs  upon  which  these 
opinions  rest,  are  set  forth  and  discussed  in  the 
following  pages. 


\i 


} 


To  me  it  appears  also.  That  the  Allegiance  ot 
His  Majesty's  Roman  Catholic  subjects  cannot 
be  sufficiently  ensured  for  the  welfare  and  tran- 
quillity of  the  State,  unless  the  Roman  Catholic 
Hierarchy,  and  the  Ecclesiastical  Jurisdiction  ex- 
ercised by  the  Roman  Catholic  church  over  that 
portion  of  His  Majesty's  subjects,  be  brought  under 
the  same  legal  control  which  The  Sovereign  holds 
and  exercises  over  all  the  rest  of  his  subjects  of 
whatever  denomination :  and  to  accomplish  this 
object,  resort  must  be  had,  not  to  any  co-opera- 
tion of  Foreign  aid,  or  tortuous  Negociations  at 
home  or  abroad,  but  to  direct,  independent,  do- 
mestic Legislation ;  removing  out  of  the  realm  all 
Institutions,  Monastic  or  others,  which  are  ruled 
by  authorities  residing  in  foreign  countries ;  sub- 
jecting all  the  Secular  Clergy,  of  every  degree,  to 
the  control  of  the  Crown;  and  duly  regulating 
their  Intercourse  with  the  See  of  Rome. 

With  these  fixed  and  unalterable  Principles, 
to  be  limited  in  their  extent  by  the  necessity  out 
of  which  they  arise,  it  will  be  due  however  to  the 
Roman  Catholics,  as  to  all  other  classes  of  our 
fellow-countrymen,  that  whatever  else  of  Protec- 
tion, Honour,  Privilege,  or  Emolument  can  be 
safely  granted,  should  be  granted  freely  and  spon- 
taneously to  all.  Their  Religious  Worship,  if  they 
need  it,  should  have  further  protection  from  dis- 
turbance, with  a  due  check  nevertheless  upon 
unnecessary  parade  of  ostentatious  Processions, 

b2 


-'^  If- 

■  ■■  .«i^ 


o  -- 


endangering  the  public  peace  in  our  streets ;  and 
providing  also  that  their  power  of  Spiritual  Ex- 
communication shall  be  disarmed  of  its  Temporal 
effects.     Their  Marriages,  according  to  the  rites 
of  their  own   Church,   should  be  acknowledged 
as  valid  by  our  Courts  of  Law,  without  constrain- 
ing them  to  a  conformity  with  the  rites  of  the 
Protestant  Church,  to  which  their  modes  of  faith 
are  opposed.      At  the  Bar,  Precedence  should  be 
granted  to    Roman    Catholic    Barristers,   by  the 
same  rules  of  estimation  which  apply  to  all  others 
of  the  same  profession.    In  the  Revenue,  and  other 
branches  of  Civil   Service,   the   same  objects  of 
Employment  and  Emolument,  which  are  accessible 
to  others,  might  be  justly  placed  within  the  reach 
of  their  attainments,  industry,   and  merits.     But 
in  leaving  their  admissibility  to  Naval  and  Mili- 
tary rank,    as   it  now  stands,   it  must  never  be 
supposed  that  the  Public  exercise  of  any  other 
form  of  Worship   than   that   of  the  Established 
Church  can  be  permitted  in  our  camps  or  fleets. 

Entertaining  these  views,  I  have  long  regretted 
that  the  Roman  Catholics  should  have  rejected 
every  lesser  advantage  and  benefit  which  was 
within  their  reach;  but  it  has  hitherto  ap- 
peared, that  unless  they  can  lay  their  hands 
at  once  upon  the  Helm  of  the  State,  they 
disdainfully  reject  all  lesser  benefits.  Such  at 
least  was  the  conduct  of  their  Leaders  in  the 
year   1813;    and  such,  if  their  Claims  are  now 


to  be  renewed,  we  are  told,  will  be  the  only 
ground  on  which  they  will  consent  to  put  the 
issue  of  the  present  Crisis. 

For  this  Crisis  we  must  therefore  now  pre- 
pare :  and  looking  forward  to  it  with  those  feelings 
of  intense  interest  which  are  displayed  all  around 
us,  it  is  naturally  and  anxiously  asked.  What 
knowledge  does  the  Nation  possess  of  those 
Opinions  whose  paramount  authority  must  decide 
that  issue  ? 

Of  the  August  Sovereign  now  happily  on  the 
throne  of  these  Realms,  we  are  precluded  by  the 
principles  of  our  Constitution  from  stating  his 
Personal  Opinions  upon  matters  depending  in  Par- 
liament, which  those  now  under  our  consideration 
are  so  soon  to  become.  But  we  all  know  the  solemn 
nature  and  form  of  the  Coronation  Oath  which 
He  has  taken.  We  know  also  the  fixed  and 
recorded  opinions  of  his  revered  Predecessor, 
upon  the  full  Extent  of  that  Obligation.  From 
those  Principles  we  are  firmly  persuaded  that  He 
will  not  depart ;  and  that  the  high  Prerogative  of 
refusing  the  Royal  Assent  to  any  obnoxious  Mea- 
sures, a  Prerogative  repeatedly  exercised  dur- 
ing the  Reigns  of  King  William  and  Queen  Anne, 
by  the  Sovereign  personally*  present  in  Parlia- 
ment, will  be  again  effectually  exerted,  if  neces- 
sary, for  the  protection  of  our  Established  Con- 
stitution. 

*,See  Lords  Journals.  24  Feb.  1691.— 14  March  1692.— 25 
Jan.  1693.— 10  April  1696—12  June  1701.— 11  March  1707. 


m 


The  House  of  Peers  has  repeatedly,  and  by 
large  majorities,  refused  any  such  Concessions  as 
are  now  demanded. 

The  House  of  Commons,  indeed,  has  been 
alternately  willing  and  unwilling  to  concede  ;  and 
the  Opinion  of  that  portion  of  the  Legislature  may 
be  justly  said,  at  this  time,  to  hang  in  doubtful 
balance. 

The  Government,  beneficially  for  the  State  or 
otherwise,  as  it  may  eventually  prove,  but  with 
a  heavy  intermediate  responsibility,  has  under 
these  circumstances  proclaimed  itself  Neutral, 
and  hitherto  pronounces  upon  this  subject  no 
Collective  Opinion  whatever. 

The  People  on  their  part,  having  no  other  op- 
portunity during  the  recess  of  Parliament,  and 
having  no  early  prospect  of  a  fresh  appeal  to  them 
by  a  dissolution  of  the  present  Parliament,  have 
shown,  so  far  as  in  England  they  have  been  called 
together,  a  decided  Opposition  to  further  concession, 
which  doubtless  will  be  farther  attested  by  mul- 
titudinous Addresses  and  Petitions. 

And  in  Ireland,  during  what  has  been  for  more 
than  many  months  almost  an  Interregnum,  except 
for  the  acts  of  the  intrusive  Government  set  up  by 
the  Roman  Catholic  Association,  it  is  no  matter 
of  surprise  that  the  Protestant  subjects  of  His 
Majesty  should  have  resorted,  in  their  own  de- 
fence, and  for  the  protection  of  their  Civil  and  Re- 
ligious Liberties,  to  a  method  of  declaring  their 
sentiments,  which  new  as  it  is  in  Form,  has  been 


\ 


> 


called  forth  by  new  and  appalling  Circumstances, 
where  a  Power  has  grown  up  and  been  allowed  to 
display  itself  in  such  acts  of  Usurped  authority  as 
our  forefathers  never  witnessed. 

Such  then  is  the  Crisis  at  which  we  are  ar- 
rived ;  and  all  eyes  are  looking  steadfastly  to  the 
Issue  which  may  await  the  Country  upon  the 
commencement  of  the  approaching  Session  of 
Parliament. 

That  the  Dictator  and  Director  of  that  mischiev- 
ous assembly,  which  has  gloried  in  trampling  upon 
the  Law,  will  no  longer  have  to  boast  of  his 
Triumph  ;  and  that  he  will  find  the  barriers  of  its 
Sanctuary  strong  enough  to  exclude  him,  will  be 
shortly  seen. 

By  an  early  Statute  in  the  reign  of  Elizabeth, 
every  Member  who  shall  enter  the  Parliament 
House  without  having  taken  the  Oath  of  Supre- 
macy before  the  Lord  Steward  or  his  deputies, 
shall  be  to  all  intents  and  purposes  as  if  he  had 
never  been  returned.  Under  this  Law,  Sir  John 
Leeds  in  the  reign  of  James  I.  was  disabled  from 
serving  in  the  Parliament  to  which  he  had  been 
elected ;  *  and  although  the  form  of  Oath  has  been 
varied  from  time  to  time,  the  legal  consequences 
of  not  taking  it  remain  the  same. 

By  a  Law  passed  in  the  reign  of  Charles  the 
Second,  all  Members  of  the  House  of  Commons 
were  also  required  to  take  the  Oaths  of  Allegiance 

*  1  Lords  Journ.  516. 


8 


9 


and  Supremacy,  and  to  make  and  subscribe  the 
Declaration    against    Transubstantiation    at    the 
Table  of  the  House  ;  and  all  who  should  wilfully 
presume  to  sit   or  vote  without  taking  the  said 
Oaths,  or  making  and  signing  the  Declaration, 
were  thereby  disabled  from  sitting  or  voting  in 
the  Parliament  to  which  they  had  been  elected  ; 
their  election  was  declared  void,  and  new  writs 
were  directed  to  be  issued  for  the  election  of  other 
Members  in  their  place,  as  if  they  were  naturally 
dead.    Under  this   Law,  within    ten    years   after 
the  Revolution,  Sir  Henry  Mounson,*  the  Lord 
Fanshawe,t  and  JohnArchdall,^— and  again  in  the 
reign  of  George  the  First,  Lewis  Pryse,§  knight 
of  the  shire  for  the  county  of  Cardigan, — upon 
their  refusal  to  take  the  Oaths  and  make  and  sign 
the  Declaration,  were  severally  discharged  or  ex- 
pelled, and  new  writs  were  issued  in  due  course  to 
elect  others  in  their  place  ;  only  delaying  the  new 
writ  where  the  election  was  questioned  by  Petition, 
as  in  the  case  of  Lord  Fanshawe,  until  after  the 
Petition  was  heard.  ||    And  that  the  same  Law  ap- 
plies equally  to  all  Members  elected  since  the 
Union  with  Ireland,  is  plainly  declared  by  the  4th 
article  of  the  Union ;  and  is  proved  also  by  the 
several  Acts  of  personal  Indemnity  which   have 
been  since  passed    for    the    relief   of  Members 

•  X.  Com.  Journ.  131.     f  Ibid.     I  xii.  Com.  Journ.  386—388. 
§  xviii.  Com.  Jouni.  411.     ||  x.  Com.  Journ.  188, 


V 


(Ireland  inclusive)  who  had  inadvertently  taken 
their  seats  before  they  had  conformed  to  the 
conditions  prescribed  by  the  Law. 

It  were  much  to  be  wished  that  the  Law  of  elec- 
tions should  be  extended,  so  as  to  require  the  like 
tests  from  every  Candidate  before  any  vote  can 
be  received  for  him  at  an  election ;  in  order 
that  the  public  peace  may  not  be  troubled  by  the 
needless  return  of  any  person,  who  if  elected  is 
nevertheless  incapable  to  sit  or  vote  in  Parlia- 
ment. 

That  the  Roman  Catholic  Association  must 
also  be  put  down,  together  with  its  Catholic  Rent, 
(no  new  Expedient  of  Roman  Catholic  Agitators 
in  Ireland,*)  no  loyal  man  can  doubt.  Why 
it  has  been  hitherto  tolerated,  if  not  counte- 
nanced, in  its  proceedings,  by  the  successive  Local 
Governments  of  Ireland,  is  a  question  not  easily 
answered  ;  nor  why  it  has  been  so  long  endured 
by  the  King's  Government  at  home  ;  unless  indeed 
because  the  Law  enacted  for  its  suppression  was 
not  so  framed  by  those  who  prepared  it,  as  to  be 
effectual  for  its  professed  purpose.  The  time  how- 
ever is  now  at  hand,  for  showing  that  such  a 
Tyranny,  Spiritual  and  Temporal,  must  be  brought 
to  an  end ;  and  that  no  power  is  to  be  acknow^- 

*  First  practiced  in  1613  for  support  of  the  Deputation  of 
''  Mutineers"  to  James  1.  See  Proclamation  of  the  Lord  Deputy 
Chichester,  9  July  1613. 


10 


ledged  by  the  King's   Subjects  but  that  of  the 
King  and  his  Parliament. 

After  the  Government  and  the  Parliament 
shall  have  thus  vindicated  their  honour,  it  will 
appear  finally, — Whether  the  Roman  Catholics  will 
again  renew  their  Claims  of  unqualified  and  un- 
conditional Admission  to  all  the  Powers  of  govern- 
ing a  Protestant  Empire.  It  will  appear  also, 
— What  further  Measures,  if  any,  will  be  brought 
forward  by  the  Ministers  of  the  Crown  for  alter- 
ing the  present  state  of  the  law,  and  bringing  the 
Roman  Catholic  portion  of  His  Majesty's  subjects 
into  more  complete  subjection  to  the  Supremacy 
of  the  State;  allowing  to  them,  nevertheless,  the 
full  benefit  of  all  Stations  and  Employments  of 
Honour  or  Emolument  to  which  they  can  with 
safety  be  admitted.  And  this  Nation,  which  has 
Ions:  been  accustomed  to  look  with  admiration  and 
gratitude  to  its  Illustrious  Deliverer  in  War,  will 
as  confidently  expect  that  its  Protestant  Consti- 
tution in  Church  and  State,  now  intrusted  to  His 
hands,  shall  be  by  Him  maintained  and  preserved 
entire  and  unimpaired  ;  in  defiance  of  all  attacks  by 
clamour  and  open  violence,  or  other  machinations 
not  less  dangerous,  by  which  its  enemies  may 
attempt  its  overthrow. 

COLCHESTER. 


KiDBROOKE, 

15,  Nov.  1828. 


SPEECHES. 


On  the  9th  of  March,  1813.— The  House  of  Commons  having 
this  day  resolved  itself  into  a  Committee  of  the  whole  House, 
(Mr.  Wrottesley  in  the  chair,)  "  to  take  into  its  most  serious 
consideration  the  state  of  the  Laws  affecting  His  Majesty's 
Roman  Catholic  subjects  in  Great  Britain  and  Ireland,  with  a 
view  to  such  a  final  and  conciliatory  adjustment  as  may  be  con- 
ducive to  the  peace  and  strength  of  the  United  Kingdom,  to 
the  stability  of  the  Protestant  Establishment,  and  to  the  general 
satisfaction  and  concord  of  all  classes  of  His  Majesty's  subjects," 

Mr.  Grattan  moved,  "  That  with  a  view  to  such  an  Adjust- 
ment as  may  be  conducive  to  the  Peace  and  strength  of  the 
United  Kingdom,  to  the  Security  of  the  Established  Church,  and 
to  the  ultimate  Concord  of  all  classes  of  His  Majesty's  subjects, 
it  is  highly  advisable  to  provide  for  the  removal  of  the  civil  and 
military  Disqualifications  under  which  His  Majesty's  Roman 
Catholic  subjects  now  labour,  with  such  exceptions,  and  under 
such  regulations  as  may  be  found  necessary  for  preserving  un- 
alterably the  Protestant  Succession  to  the  Crown,  according 
to  the  Act  for  the  further  limitation  of  the  Crown,  and  better 


12 

securing  the  rights  and  liberties  of  the  Subject,  and  for  main- 
taining inviolate  the  Protestant  Episcopal  Church  of  England 
and  Ireland,  and  the  Doctrines,  Discipline,  and  Government, 
as  the  same  are  respectively  by  Law  established."  Whereupon 
the  Right  Honourable  Charles  Abbot  (the  Speaker)  rose  and 
spoke  as  follows : 

Mr.  Wrottesley, 
The  Right  honourable  Gentleman  who  spoke 
last  (Mr.  Grattan)  having  truly  stated  that  our 
present  discussion  may  be  considered  as  the 
continuation  of  the  former  debate  upon  the 
question,  and  the  Resolution  in  your  hand  as 
the  basis  of  the  whole  measure  proposed  for  our 
adoption,  I  am  desirous  of  taking  the  earliest 
opportunity  in  my  power,  to  enter  my  warning 
protest  against  the  course  hitherto  pursued,  as 
well  as  against  the  measure  now  proposed  ;  and 
at  the  same  time  to  state  such  other  course  as 
in  my  opinion  might  advantageously  be  taken 
for  enlarging  the  privileges  of  His  Majesty's 
Roman  Catholic  subjects,  without  endangering 
the  general  fabric  of  the  Constitution. 

And,  Sir,  in  the  first  place,  looking  back  to 
the  Mode  by  which  we  have  arrived  at  the 
Committee,  I  cannot  think  that  its  result  will  be 
successful.  The  object  for  which  the  House  was 
persuaded  to  enter  into  this  Committee,  was  to 
discuss  the  details  of  Three  different  Plans  ;  the 
First  of  which  is  already  abandoned,  the  Second 
will  satisfy  no  party,  and  the  Third  is  admitted 
to  be  impracticable. 


13 

The  First  plan  was  for  unlimited  and  uncondi- 
tional concession,  as  urged  by  the  Irish  Roman 
Catholics  in  their  petitions.  But  this  claim  of 
right  for  absolute  and  unconditional  Emancipa- 
tion (as  it  is  termed)  has  found  but  few  advocates 
in  this  House ;  it  has  been  abandoned  by  the 
Right  honourable  Mover  of  this  great  question, 
and  disclaimed  also  by  the  Right  honourable  Gen- 
tleman (Mr.  Piunkett)  who  supported  the  motion 
with  such  distinguished  eloquence  and  ability 
upon  the  first  day  of  these  debates.  It  has  now 
no  longer  any  persisting  advocate. 

The  Second  plan  was  for  qualified  concessions, 
with  some  legislative  control  over  the  Roman 
Catholic  clergy.  This  is  apparently  the  plan  of 
the  Right  Honourable  Mover,  so  far  as  hitherto 
explained  ;  and  it  is  undoubtedly  the  plan  of 
the  Right  honourable  gentleman  (Mr.  Canning) 
who  obtained  from  the  last  parliament  the  pledge 
for  entering  upon  its  consideration. 

But  this  Plan  is  resisted  by  the  Roman  Catho- 
lics themselves ;  for  they  call  it  persecution,  and 
inadmissible  control.  They  refuse  even  to  sub- 
ject their  Church  discipline  to  State  inspection; 
as  we  may  collect  from  the  Declaration  of  the 
Roman  Catholic  Prelates  at  Dublin  in  November 
1812,  and  also  from  the  explicit  language  con- 
tained in  the  publication  of  Mr.  Clinch,  whom 
they  have  avowed  and  adopted,  by  a  formal  re- 
solution, as  their  advocate  and  champion. 

And   as   this    plan    is    also   acknowledged   to 


i 


I 


\ 


14 


involve  a  repeal  of  the  Corporation  and  Test  Acts, 
such  concessions  will  on  the  other  hand  dissatisfy 
the  Protestant  Church  of  England.  So  that  if 
the  Roman  Catholics  are  not  gained,  and  the  Pro- 
testants are  dissatisfied,  the  whole  professed  ob- 
ject of  Conciliation  is  lost. 

The  Third  plan,  that  of  the  noble  Viscount 
(Lord  Castlereagh,)  is  for  bringing  the  Roman 
Catholics  within  the  reach  of  political  power, 
with  safety  to  the  Protestant  establishment,  by 
obtaining  the  sanction  and  concurrence  of  the 
head  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Church,  to  such 
arrangements  as  shall  be  satisfactory  to  both 
parties.  But  this  is  admitted  at  the  present 
time  to  be  wholly  impracticable,  if  desirable, 
and  may  be  fairly  laid  out  of  the  question  for 
all  present  purposes. 

Such  are  the  Three  Plans,  of  which  the  different 
supporters  have  all  concurred  in  voting  for  this 
Committee ;  but  where  two  parties  out  of  three 
cannot  attain  their  object,  and  the  third  party 
are  by  no  means  agreed  upon  its  extent,  or  upon 
the  mode  of  executing  it. 

With  respect  to  the  measure  itself,  as  now 
proposed,  I  object  altogether  to  its  form  and 
character.  We  are  required  to  begin  with  a 
sweeping  repeal  of  all  known  Securities,  upon 
the  faith  of  other  Securities  as  yet  unknown.  Our 
surrender  is  to  be  instant  and  nearly  entire  ;  the 
provision  for  self-defence  is  to  be  subsequent  and 
precarious. 


15 


What  is  the  proposed  grant,  when  drawn  out 
into  particulars?  The  doors  of  both  Houses  of 
Parliament,  of  the  Privy  Council,  of  the  Judi- 
cial bench,  and  all  Corporate  Magistracy,  are  at 
once  to  be  laid  open ;  and  the  Test  Act  in  Eng- 
land, which  the  Prince  of  Orange  expressly  in- 
sisted upon  retaining  at  the  Revolution,  is  to  be 
abolished.  All  these  are  fearful  changes.  For 
old  checks,  as  it  appears  to  me,  may  nevertheless 
be  good  against  new  dangers;  and  what  protected 
us  at  one  time  from  a  Pretender  to  the  throne, 
may  not  be  useless  at  another  time  against  the 
Domestic  disturber,  or  the  Foreign  invader  and 
subverter  of  Empires. 

Then  as  to  the  Securities  :  we  are  told  that 
we  have  the  present  Oaths,  and  that  we  shall 
have  some  control  over  the  Roman  Catholic 
Clergy,  and  their  Foreign  Intercourse.  Of  the 
Oaths  I  do  not  mean  to  speak  lightly,  or  of  the 
conscientious  sense  in  which  they  may  be  taken 
by  honourable  men.  But  we  cannot  be  blind 
or  deaf  to  all  that  is  to  be  seen  and  heard  upon 
this  subject.  We  see  in  England  no  very  great 
eagerness  to  take  these  Oaths,  if  we  may  judge 
by  the  recent  statement  of  the  Oaths  taken  by 
Roman  Catholics,  and  returned  to  the  Privy 
Council  under  the  Act  of  1791;  for  during  the 
last  ten  years  there  appears  to  have  been  but 
one  solitary  instance.  And  however  specific  the 
language  of  these  Oaths  and  asseverations,  there 
have   not  been   wanting  many  explanatory  dis- 


16 

tinctions  to  do  away  their  effect.  Some  are 
said  to  be  solemn  and  serious,  some  serious,  but 
not  solemn  ;  we  have  some  that  are  active,  and 
some  that  are  passive.  And  in  Ireland,  the 
honourable  Baronet  opposite  to  me  (Sir  John 
Hippisley)  well  knows  that  Ecclesiastical  moni- 
tions have  been  issued,  to  warn  the  Roman  Ca- 
tholics from  unwarily  thinking  these  Oaths  more 
extensively  binding  than  they  really  are,  and 
from  supposing  themselves  too  much  under  the 
necessity  of  forbearing  to  weaken  and  disturb 
the  Protestant  Church  and  government.  With 
respect  to  the  control  and  regulation  of  the  Ro- 
man Catholic  Church,  without  which  it  is  said 
that  no  act  of  concession  should  be  allowed  to 
operate,  and  until  which  takes  place  we  have  been 
advised  that  all  privileges,  if  granted,  should 
nevertheless  be  suspended  in  their  operation;* 
would  it  not  be  more  rational  to  begin  with  the 
Regulating  Bill,  and  see  whether  the  Roman 
Catholics  will  accede  to  any  regulation  whatever? 
For  if  not,  the  whole  proceeding  in  the  way  of 
conciliation  is  worse  than  nugatory. 

The  consequences,  however,  of  such  a  Bill, 
even  if  proposed  to  lie  over  for  consideration  to 
another  session  of  Parliament,  will  not  be  indif- 
ferent; it  will  naturally  give  exaggerated  hopes 
to  the  Roman  Catholics,  which  cannot  be  ulti- 
mately fulfilled,  and  it  will  spread  universal  dis- 

*  By  the  Right  Honourable  W.  C.  Pluiiket,  in  his  Speech  25//* 
of  Feb,  1813. 


17 


satisfaction  through  the  Established  Church,  and 
hold  out  the  prospect  of  perpetual  conflict  and 
agitation.  For  I  think  no  maxim  more  false  or 
dangerous  in  Policy,  than  that  which  has  been 
advanced  in  support  of  measures  like  the  present, 
that  by  adding  to  the  Power  of  those  who  are 
hostile  to  our  establishments,  we  may  hope  to 
abate  of  their  Enmity. 

I  shall  then  be  asked,  can  I  think  that  mat- 
ters ought  all  to  remain  on  their  present  foot- 
ing ;  or  do  I  believe  that  they  can  so  remain  ? 
I  have  never  thought  so ;  I  have  often  said  other- 
wise to  those  with  whom  I  have  communicated 
upon  these  subjects.  There  is  much  to  be  done 
every  way. 

But  my  Views  are  different  from  those  of  the 
present  proceeding,  both  as  to  the  Measure  and 
the  Mode.  The  Measure  must  not  be  sweeping 
and  violent,  and  the  Mode  must  be  distinct  and 
gradual.  The  temper  of  this  country,  in  great 
concerns  of  Legislation,  is  happily  slow  and 
cautious ;  the  people  are  not  unwilling  to  con- 
sider of  useful  changes,  but  they  are  not  dis- 
posed to  the  hazardous  adoption  of  wholesale 
projects. 

There  are  several  important  changes  for  which 
I  am  prepared,  useful  to  the  State  as  Protestant, 
and  useful  also  to  the  Roman  Catholics ;  which 
nevertheless  would  not  alter  the  fundamental 
policy  of  the  constitution.  Some  are  of  Conces- 
sion, some  of  Regulation. 

c 


18 

In  the  way  of  Concession,  adverse  as  my  princi- 
ples are  to  admitting  the  Roman  Catholics  into 
offices  of  civil  pow^er,  authority,  or  jurisdiction, 
I  should  gladly  open  to  them  a  larger  and  more 
liberal  share  in  the  honours  of  the  Military  pro- 
fession. The  Roman  Catholic  Officer  should  rise 
as  freely  to  Military  rank  in  every  part  of  the 
Empire  as  he  may  by  law  in  Ireland ;  the  Mili- 
tary system,  in  this  respect,  should  also  be  made 
uniform  and  complete  for  all  His  Majesty's  sub- 
jects of  every  religious  persuasion.  Beyond  tliis 
I  should  be  glad  to  see  a  repeal  of  that  part  of 
the  law  of  1793,  which  excludes  Roman  Catho- 
lics from  the  situation  of  Generals  on  the  Staff; 
for  I  would  place  within  the  reach  of  their  honour- 
able ambition  all  the  high  ranks  of  military  com- 
mand, excepting  only  the  very  highest  commands 
at  home ;  and  I  except  those,  only  because  they 
have  necessarily  in  their  hands  great  Political 
Power. 

I  state  this  as  an  instance  of  Concession  in- 
volving no  transfer  of  power,  though  it  confers 
high  rewards  for  honourable  exertion  in  the  field  ; 
and  I  would  apply  the  same  principle  also  most 
freely  to  the  honours  of  the  Bar.  Nor  do  I 
believe  that  Concessions  of  this  description,  if 
asked  for,  would  in  either  case  be  denied. 

Again,  the  Toleration  of  the  Roman  Catholic 
Religion  should  be  rendered  more  complete,  in 
points  of  which  the  Roman  Catholics  may  now 
reasonably  complain.      The   rights  of  the  Irish 


V 


19 

Roman  Catholic  soldier  to  his  own  religious  wor- 
ship in  England,  should  stand  upon  law  here, 
as  it  does  in  Ireland,  and  not  merely  upon  mili- 
tary regulation.  The  English  Roman  Catholic 
should  not  be  compelled  to  marry  in  Protestant 
Churches.  And  the  Roman  Catholic  Mass  Houses 
everywhere  should  be  protected  by  law  from  out- 
rage and  disturbance  as  completely  as  all  other 
places  of  Religious  Worship. 

All  these  are  instances  illustrative  of  that  de- 
scription of  privileges  and  protections,  which  in 
my  judgment  might  safely  and  usefully  be  granted 
at  once,  and  without  stipulation  or  condition. 

On  the  other  hand,  measures  also  must  be 
adopted  for  regulating  the  Roman  Catholic 
Church  independently  of  every  question  of  Con- 
cession, and  whether  any  further  privileges  are 
granted  or  not.  The  Hierarchy  of  the  English 
and  Irish  Roman  Catholics  must  be  brought 
within  the  inspection  and  control  of  the  State. 
Parliament  has  been  compelled  to  look  into  this 
subject,  and  the  conclusion  is  irresistible. 

Foreign  intercourse,  and  even  foreign  influ- 
ence, are  alleged  to  be  of  the  essence  of  the 
Roman  Catholic  religion ;  and  the  master-link  of 
foreign  connexion  is  in  the  hands  of  our  mortal 
enemy.  The  Noble  Viscount  has  told  us  the 
opinion  formed  by  the  most  vigilant  ministers 
of  France:*  and  the  recent  acts  of  Buonaparte 


See   the    ^*  Expose  de    la    Situation  de  1  'Empire    au    1 

C   2 


er 


o 


20 


demonstrate  his  opinion  of  the  important  influ- 
ence of  papal  authority  over  all  Roman  Catho- 
lics. In  Ireland,  all  who  have  read  the  instruc- 
tive publications  of  the  Honourable  Baronet, 
know  that  in  modern  times  even  Aliens  have  been 
obtruded  and  appointed  to  Roman  Catholic  Bi- 
shoprics there ;  and  when  General  Humbert  in- 
vaded Ireland,  and  landed  at  Killala,  he  found 
that  the  Roman  Catholic  Bishop  of  Killala,  ap- 
pointed by  the  Pope,  was  brother  to  a  rebel 
General  in  his  own  army.  These  things  must  no 
longer  be  endured.  And  that  the  Vicars  Apostolic 
of  England  must  also  be  brought  within  the  cog- 
nizance of  the  State,  is  most  evident  from  the 
formidable  nature  of  their  powers,  which  they 
exercised  in  the  transactions  of  the  year  1790 
over  the  English  Roman  Catholics. 

Upon  this  point,  if  the  Roman  Catholic  Prelates 
in  England  and  Ireland  have  any  desire  to  con- 
ciliate their  Protestant  fellow-subjects,  the  road 
is  now  open  to  them  ;  this  is  their  day ;  let  them 
come  forward  and  define  the  limits  of  their  obedi- 
ence, and  tender  the  largest  submission  w^hich  any 
other  Roman  Catholic  subjects  have  ever  yielded 
to  any  Protestant  government.  If  they  decline 
so  to  do,  their  disposition  will  be  no  longer  doubt- 
ful. But  at  all  events,  whether  they  do  or  not, 
it  behoves  Government  to  look  to  its  own  security 
in  this  quarter,  and  new  model  the  provisions  of 

Decenibre,   1809,  par  Le  Comte  Moiitalivet,"    in  the    Recueil 
de  Decrets,  &c.  Tom.  iii.  p.  724 — 731, 


21 

the  statute  of  Elizabeth,  and  apply  it  to  all  parts 
of  the  United  Kingdom,  before  even  any  proposal 
can  be  entertained  for  putting  the  English  and 
Irish  Roman  Catholics  upon  a  footing  of  equal 
privileges. 

As  to  further  claims  of  Civil  Power,  I  confess 
I  see  no  prospect  of  making  any  such  Concession, 
until  the  Roman  Catholic  Clergy  shall  go  much 
further,  and  bring  themselves  to  the  temper  of 
other  Roman  Catholic  countries  and  times,  where 
the  Spiritual   Supremacy  of  the  Pope  has  been 
altogether  renounced ;  for  history  shows  it  to  have 
been  no  part  of  the  ancient  Roman  Catholic  Reli- 
gion ;   and  it  is  vain  and  idle  to  be  fastidious  in 
declining  to  understand  those  matters  with  which 
we  have  practically  to  deal.    Whilst  the  Spiritual 
Supremacy  of  the  Pope  is  reserved  by  the  Roman 
Catholic   Clergy  out  of  their  allegiance  to  the 
State,  in  the  language  of  Lord  Clarendon,  who 
had  deeply  examined  and  has  amply  developed 
this   subject,    "  this    reserve   is    elusory   of    the 
w^hole."*    Other  able  writers  have  truly  described 
it  to  be  ''  a  mere  legerdemain."     And  until  this 
is  renounced,  I  would  answer  the  Roman  Catholic 
claims  for  power,  in  the  recent  language  of  one 
of  the  Northern  counties  of  Ireland,  f  *'  If  you 

*  See  Lord  Clarendon.  *^^  Religion  and  Policy,  with  a  Survey 
of  the  Power  and  Jurisdiction  of  the  Pope  in  the  dominions  of 
other  Princes."  Oxon,  1811. 

f  See  Resolution  of  the  County  of  Sligo,  Aug.  12,  1812,  and 
Petition  presented  Dec.  7,  1812. 


22 


cannot  give  up  what  you  call  your  Faith,  we 
cannot  give  up  what  we  know  to  be  our  Con- 
stitution/' 

With  respect  to  these  points,  on  which  I  have 
taken  the  liberty  of  suggesting  the  expediency 
of  a  larger  Admission  to  honours,  and  a  stricter 
Regulation  of  allegiance,  all  these,  in  my  humble 
judgment,  demand  our  early  and  serious  atten- 
tion ;  but  they  stand  clear  of  all  encroachment 
upon  the  Civil  and  Political  Power  of  this  Pro- 
testant state,  and  therefore  this  Committee  is 
not  the  proceeding  out  of  which  they  should 
originate. 

The  Petitions  before  us,  the  discussions  which 
have  preceded  and  attended  them,  and  the  origin 
of  this  Committee,  are  all  too  hostile  in  their 
aspect,  and  too  lofty  in  their  pretensions ;  and  if 
allowed  to  go  to  their  professed  and  intended 
length,  would  speedily  endanger  the  public  tran- 
quillity;  and  England  will  no  longer  be  England, 
if  all  reli2:ious  distinctions  in  the  State  are  to  be 
laid  prostrate,  for  the  vain  and  chimerical  scheme 
of  establishing  the  rights  of  what  is  called  uni- 
versal religious  liberty,  uncontrolled  by  maxims 
and  considerations  of  civil  expediency,  and  un- 
checked by  the  necessary  defences  of  our  Esta- 
blishments. 

For  these  reasons,  readily  as  I  should  concur 
in  any  or  all  of  the  separate  Measures  which  I 
have  suggested,  when  brought  under  our  separate 
consideration,  and  in  another  course,  I  must  give 


-♦  ***.  ^^ 


i 


23 

my  decided  negative  to  the  general  sweeping  and 
subversive  principles  of  the  Proposition  now  laid 
before  us. 

After  Debate  thereupon,  the  Question  being  put,  to  agree  to 
the  proposed  Resolution,  the  Committee  divided ; 

Ayes,  to  the  right,  186— Noes,  to  the  left,  119— Majority,  67. 
And  so  the  question  passed  in  the  Affirmative. 

Resolved  :— "  That  the  Chairman  be  directed  to  move  for 
leave  to  bring  in  a  Bill  pursuant  to  the  said  Resolution." 


25 


II. 


"Sk.'J 


On  the  24th  of  May,  1813. — The  House  of  Commons  having 
this  day  resolved  itself  into  a  Committee  of  the  whole  House, 
(Mr.  Abercromby  in  the  Chair,)  upon  the  Bill  "  to  provide  for  the 
removal  of  the  Civil  and  Military  Disqualifications  under  which 
His  Majesty's  Roman  Catholic  subjects  now  labour :" — and  the 
Chairman  having  proceeded  to  read  the  first  clause,  whereby  it 
was  enacted — ''  That  from  and  after  the  passing  of  the  Act,  it 
shall  and  may  be  lawful  for  persons  professing  the  Roman  Catholic 
Religion,  to  sit  and  vote  in  either  House  of  Parliament,  &c/' 
The  Right  Honourable  Charles  Abbot  (the  Speaker)  rose,  and 
spoke  as  follows : — 

Mr.  Abercrombv, 
According  to  my  view  of  this  great  Measure, 
in  its  origin  and  progress,  I  must  of  course  be 
adverse  to  the  present  Bill.  And  I  am  desirous 
of  taking  the  earliest  opportunity  which  is  allowed 
to  me,  for  stating  the  general  grounds  upon  which 
1  think  we  should  now  do  well  to  pause  upon  our 
proceedings ;  and  also  those  general  principles, 
which,  when  applied  to  the  structure  of  this  Bill 
in  its  different  parts,  must  lead  to  such  amend- 
ments as  would  destroy  its  main  purpose,  namely, 
the  admission  of  the  Roman  Catholics  to  Political 
Power,  and  the  capacity  of  bearing  sovereign  rule 
in  a  Protestant  State. 


2G 


27 


The  basis  of  our  whole  proceedings  was  ori- 
ginally laid  down  in  terms  of  sound  practical 
wisdom.  And  the  Right  honourable  gentleman 
(Mr.  Canning)  who  brought  forward  in  a  former 
Parliament  a  Resolution  of  the  same  character 
as  that  out  of  which  the  present  Bill  has  sprung, 
after  explicitly  declaring  that  his  object  was  to 
accomplish  a  final  and  conciliating  adjustment, 
declared  also,*  that  unless  such  Arrangement 
could  be  made  satisfactory  to  all  parties,  and 
J  without  conferring  a  triumph  upon  either,  he 
himself  should  no  longer  think  its  execution  to 
be  desirable. 

And  now  that  this  Bill,  with  all  its  amended 
and  incorporated  provisions,  is  before  us, — 
Does  it  appear  that  this  basis  of  general  satis- 
faction and  concord  is  likely  to  be  established? 

What  say  the  Roman  Catholics  of  Ireland? 
Have  the  Roman  Catholic  Laity  and  their  Ca- 
tholic Board  (the  hitherto  avowed  and  accredited 
organ  of  their  sentiments)  declared  their  approba- 
tion of  this  Bill?  Certainly  not.  And  so  far  as 
we  do  know  of  their  proceedings,  some  of  their 
most  distinguished  Leaders  and  auxiliary  Dele- 
gates have,  in  three  successive  meetings,  most 
vehemently  declaimed  against  it. 

The  Roman  Catholic  Clergy  on  their  part,  also 
cry  out  aloud  against  its  Ecclesiastical  provisions. 
The  Roman  Catholic  Metropolitan  Archbishop  of 
Dublin,  Dr.  Troy,  has  declared  them  to  be  worse 

*  On  making-  the  original  motion  June  2,  1812. 


is?" 


4: 


than  the  old  Veto.  And  a  Vicar  Apostolic  in 
England,  who  presides  episcopally  over  the  Mid- 
land district,*  and  is  himself  the  Agent  for  all  the 
Roman  Catholic  Prelates  of  Ireland,  has  de- 
nounced them  as  what  all  Rom.an  Catholics  must 
abhor,  and  has  declared  to  the  world,  that  sooner 
than  accept  them,  they  will  lay  down  their  lives 
upon  the  scaffold. 

Of  the  Protestant  millions  in  this  United  King- 
dom, the  large  majority  of  His  Majesty's  subjects, 
it  is  needless  to  ask.  Whether  they  can  be  satis- 
fied to  place  the  Government,  if  not  the  Crown  of 
Ireland,  within  the  reach  of  Roman  Catholic 
hands  ;  and  to  create  the  means  of  surrounding 
the  Sovereign  himself  with  Ministers  of  state, 
whose  Religion  must  be  hostile  to  his  own  right 
of  succession  to  the  throne  ? 

This  surely  is  an  inauspicious  commencement, 
and  might  be  well  taken  for  a  warning  loud 
enough  to  arrest  our  progress;  for  I  fear,  that 
instead  of  establishing  Concord,  we  shall  only  be 
opening  new  scenes  of  collision  and  conflict. 

But,  Sir,  in  proceeding  to  the  consideration 
of  the  Bill  itself,  I  think  our  judgment  must  be 
formed  by  an  examination  of  the  System  which 
it  seeks  to  establish,  as  compared  with  those 
general  rules  and  maxims  of  Policy,  which 
hitherto  have  been  deemed  fundamental  in  this 
Constitution. 

The  elementary  Principles  upon  this  subject 

♦  Dr.  Milner,  Bishop  of  Castabala,  V.  A. 


28 


are  few  and  clear,  and  happily  are  now  admitted 
by  all  who  share  in  our  debates.  It  is  now  al- 
s  lowed,  that  State  Expediency  and  Civil  Utility, 
not  abstract  Right,  must  decide  in  all  cases  upon 
the  form  of  government  in  which  the  sovereign 
powers  of  any  State  are  to  be  concentrated,  and 
also  upon  the  extent  to  which  its  control  should 
be  exercised  over  the  natural  free  agency  of  the 
people,  in  matters  civil  and  religious. 

Looking  to  the  strength  and  tranquillity  of  a 
State,  in  the  mode  of  combining  its  civil  and  ec- 
clesiastical authorities,  many  of  the  wisest  men 
have  hitherto  agreed,  that  it  would  be  desirable, 
so  far  as  practicable,  that  the  civil  authority  of 
the  State  should  be  vested  in  those  only  who 
conform  to  the  Established  Religion  of  the  State. 
But  the  diversity  incident  to  human  opinion,  and 
the  liberty  of  action  necessary  to  a  popular  State, 
require  also,  that  such  conformity  should  be  ex- 
acted no  further  than  the  safety  of  the  Government 
itself  demands ;  and  the  measure  of  its  Danger, 
is  the  true  measure  of  Exclusion. 

And  thus  it  is,  that  our  Constitution,  as  settled 
at  the  Revolution,  stands  upon  the  joint  principle, 
of  excluding  from  Power  all  nonconformists  by  a 
religious  test,  and  of  bestowing  at  the  same  time 
the  fullest  religious  Toleration  upon  all  the  ex- 
cluded. Upon  this  Principle  it  is,  that  the  Crown 
itself  is  holden  by  a  Religious  Test :  and  the 
Church  of  England  having  been  found  upon  ex- 
perience to   be  well   suited,  by  the  form  of  its 


CP 


I 


29 


government,  to  the  practice  and  habits  of  the 
English  Constitution,  the  safety  of  the  Church 
has  been  at  all  times,  and  deservedly,  the  object 
of  its  earnest  solicitude.  By  the  same  principles, 
adopted  and  acted  upon  now  for  nearly  one  hun- 
dred and  twenty  years,  the  State  has  excluded 
by  a  religious  test  all  Protestant  Dissenters  from 
civil  and  military  Offices,  upon  an  opinion  (rightly 
or  wrongly  formed)  of  their  imperfect  attachment 
to  the  Constitution  in  Church  and  State ;  and  it 
has  also  excluded  the  Roman  Catholics  from 
Parliament,  as  well  as  from  all  Offices,  civil  and 
military,  upon  the  score  of  their  alleged  defective 
Allegiance. 

Some  of  these  Exclusions,  it  is  true,  have  been 
deemed  from  time  to  time  to  be  of  less  uro-ent 
necessity ;  I  mean  those  which  regard  the  Pro- 
testant Dissenters:  and  although  it  has  not  been 
thought  prudent  to  repeal  those  laws;  and  al- 
though in  the  memorable  debates  of  1796,  their 
continuance  was  vindicated  by  Mr.  Windham, 
upon  the  principle  of  self-defence,  and  the  re- 
straint of  mischief  from  those  who  might  use  the 
powers  of  the  State  to  subvert  it,  it  has  never- 
theless been  deemed  fit  to  suspend  and  relax 
their  operation,  upon  the  long  experience  of  the 
loyalty  of  the  Protestant  Dissenters,  and  their 
exemplary  conduct. 

Against  the  Roman  Catholics,  however,  the 
laws  of  Exclusion  have  been  maintained  in  per- 
manent  force,  founded  as   they  were  upon   the 


30 

existence  of  Principles  imputed  to  the  body 
excluded;  which  principles  have  not  appeared 
to  have  undergone  any  subsequent  alteration. 
And  from  this  Policy,  I  profess  that  I  do  not 
yet  see  any  cause  to  depart.  For  I  agree  in 
the  opinions,  and  desire  to  adopt  the  language 
of  Mr.  Burke,  in  his  Tract  upon  the  Popery 
Laws  of  Ireland,  ''  That  to  exclude  the  Roman 
Catholics  from  all  Offices  in  Church  and  State 
is  a  just  and  necessary  provision,"  whatever  we 
may  think  of  their  admission  into  the  Army  or 
Revenue  ;  which  in  another  part  of  his  writings 
upon  this  subject  (his  first  letter  to  Sir  Hercules 
Langrishe)  he  describes  to  be  only  subservient 
parts  in  the  economy  and  execution,  rather  than 
in  the  administration  of  affairs ;  distinofuishins* 
those  Offices  which  really  guide  the  State,  from 
those  which  are  merely  Instrumental. 

What  therefore  I  now  contend  for,  as  upon 
a  former  occasion,  is  this;  that  we  ought  still 
to  withhold  from  the  Roman  Catholics  all  ca- 
pacity of  Political  Power  and  Jurisdiction ;  but 
at  the  same  time  widely  and  liberally  to  lay 
open  before  them  the  field  of  profitable  and 
honourable  reward  for  distinguished  exertions  and 
services,  and  in  matters  of  Religion,  to  render 
their  legal  Toleration  complete. 

With  this  view  of  the  Principles  which  have 
hitherto  guided  our  ancestors,  from  the  period 
of  the  Revolution  to  our  own  days,  let  us  apply 
them   to  this    Bill,   and   try   its  merits;    taking 


31 

however  into  our  consideration,  not  only  what 
it  does  contain,  but  also  certain  other  points 
which  it  does  not  contain. 

By  the  leading  Enactments  contained  in  this 
Bill,  we  at  once  throw  open  the  doors  of  Par- 
liament, and  give  access  to  all,  or  nearly  all, 
the  executive  departments,  Political,  Judicial, 
Civil,  and  Military. 

And  first,  of  Parliament,  which  if  carried,  I 
believe  both  the  supporters  and  opponents  of 
the  Bill  will  agree,  must  speedily  put  the  Ro- 
man Catholics  into  possession  of  all  their  ulte- 
rior objects.  Take  the  admission  of  Roman  Catho- 
lics into  Parliament  as  Individuals,  or  take  them 
as  a  Body  :  to  admit  those  who  as  Individuals 
may  become  the  distinguished  Leaders  of  parties, 
and  at  the  same  time  to  debar  them  from  filling 
the  ruling  Offices  of  the  State,  would  be  to  create 
a  most  dangerous  combination  of  means  and 
motives ;  for  their  natural  and  legitimate  ambi- 
tion, when  baffled  and  obstructed  from  advancing 
ill  its  ordinary  career,  could  then  attain  its  objects 
.)nly  by  resorting  to  the  most  violent  courses.     If 

a  Parliament,  they  ought  also  to  be  admissible 
into  the  confidential  service  of  the  Crown ;  but 
that  is  another  species  of  mischief  equally  to  be 
guarded  against,  and  which  falls  under  another 
head.  Consider  the  Roman  Catholics  sitting  here 
collectively  as  a  Body,  there  is  also  much  ground 
for  apprehension ;  their  peculiarity  of  connexion 

must   necessarily   produce   that    combination    of 


r- 


^ 


32 

strength,  which,  coalescing  in  critical  times  with 
all  the  other  embodied  discontent  incident  to  a 
popular  state,  would  produce  an  overwhelming 
force,  and  endanger  the  general  Establishments 
of  the  country. 

I  do  not  certainly  presume  to  ascribe  any  such 
spirit  or  temper  as  likely  to  actuate  any  known 
Individuals,  who  might  in  such  an  event  be  re- 
turned at  any  future  election ;  my  duty  and  my 
disposition  alike  forbid  it ;   but  from  such  causes, 
such  consequences  must  naturally  and  inevitably 
flow ;   and  I  can  assure  those  honourable  Gentle- 
men from  Ireland,  whom  I  am  now  addressing, 
that  amongst  the  many  causes  which   strongly 
induce  me  to  oppose  the  present  measure,  is  the 
firm  persuasion,   that  we  should  have  but  little 
chance  of  seeing  many  of  the  same  Representa- 
tives from  Ireland  any  longer  sitting  among  us. 

Of  the  Executive  Offices,  the  Privy  Council 
may  be  considered  as  comprising  those  who  hold 
the  Seals  of  all  the  great  and  efficient  departments 
of  the  State;  and  it  needs  no  words  to  prove, 
that  they  must  necessarily  sway  and  direct  the 
Government  in  all  its  branches.  That  Ri^rht,  I 
think,  ought  never  to  be  conceded. 

The  Bench  of  Justice,  if  occupied  by  Roman 
Catholics  (however  ably  and  impartially  filled) 
cannot  be  expected  to  administer  Justice  upon 
Protestant  Church  rights  with  equal  satisfac- 
tion to  Protestant  suitors  ;  to  say  nothing  of  the 
graver  cases  of  Criminal  Justice:  And  Justice 


i 


33 

which  is  not  satisfactorily  administered,  is,  poli* 
tically  speaking,  no  Justice  at  all.  These  there-l 
fore  are  Offices  which,  I  think,  ought  never  to  be 
conceded. 

As  to  the  general  range  of  other  Offices,  which 
fill  up  the  functions  of  the  State,  I  have  already 
declared  upon  a  former  occasion,  with  respect  to 
the  Military,  my  perfect  concurrence  in  admit- 
ting the  Roman  Catholics  to  all  the  objects  of 
their  honourable  ambition  in  the  profession  of 
Arms,  short  only  of  such  as  are  mixed  with  the 
Political  Government  of  the  State.  And  as  to 
those  of  a  Civil  nature,  whether  derived  from 
the  Crown,  or  obtained  by  Corporate  franchise,  I 
am  content  to  adopt  the  plan  suggested  by  the 
Noble  Lord  near  me  (Lord  Castlereagh)  that  the 
existing  law  in  England  should  continue  to  pre- 
vail, and  that  the  admission  of  Roman  Catho- 
lics here  (so  far  as  regards  the  Sacramental 
Test)  should  depend  upon  the  same  annual  Bill 
of  Indemnity  which  now  covers  the  case  of  the 
Protestant  Non-conformists.  So  also  as  to  the 
Admission  of  Roman  Catholics  to  become  what 
are  called  independent  members  of  our  Universi- 
ties ;  excluding  them  where  other  Non-conform- 
ists are  now  excluded,  and  admitting  them  where 
Non-conformists  are  now  admitted  ;  a  rule  vary- 
ing in  its  operation,  according  to  the  various  Sta- 
tutes which  prevail  in  the  several  Universities  of 
England,  Scotland,  and  Ireland. 

But,  Sir,  this  is  not  all.     There  are  also  other 


I 

0 


34 

matters,  not  contained  in  this  Bill,  which  appear 
to  me  to  require  our  attention.  Some  are  of 
necessary  Restriction,  and  others  of  Concession, 
which  the  suggesters  or  framers  of  this  Bill  have 
not  condescended  to  propose ;  but  which,  in  jus- 
tice to  the  Roman  Catholic  body,  and  to  our- 
selves, we  should  grant. 

Amongst  the  Restrictions  omitted,  and  which 
ought  to  have  been  inserted,  stands,  first,  the 
regulation  of  all  R,eligious  Houses  now  existing 
in  this  realm,  and  the  not  suffering  others  to  grow 
up.  Within  the  United  Kingdom  we  have  at  pre- 
sent Benedictines,  Franciscans,  Dominicans,  and 
almost  every  other  description  of  Monastic  order. 
But  the  Jesuit  funds  now  employed  upon  Stony- 
hurst  are  alone  sufficient  to  awaken  our  atten- 
tion. Of  the  system  of  education,  indeed,  as 
there  conducted,  we  know  only  that  it  is  not  the 
same  as  at  Maynooth  ;  and  that  their  young  men 
are  afterwards  sent  out  for  ordination  to  the 
College  of  the  Order  in  Sicily,  from  whence  they 
are  re-imported  into  this  country.  And  yet  these 
are  the  persons  who  are  now  about  to  establish 
themselves  in  Ireland,  for  the  purpose  of  spread- 
ing their  own  peculiar  and  suspected  modes  of 
Education.* 


*  In  what  manner  the  Order  of  Jesuits  is  and  is  not  revived  in 
England,  will  appear  from  the  following  extract  of  a  letter  from 
Cardinal  Consalvi  to  Dr.  Poynter,  Vicar  Apostolic  of  the  London 
District,  to  be  communicated  by  him  to  His  Majesty's  Go- 
vernment : — "  Quare  Amplitudo  tua  Regis  ministris  poterit  dc- 


35 


Some  provision  should  also  be  made  for  im- 
posing an  effectual  restraint  upon  Spiritual  Ex- 
communication, so  far  as  to  deprive  it  of  all  civil 
consequences.  Many  and  grievous  are  the  sen- 
tences of  this  sort  which  are  known  to  have 
occurred  both  in  England  and  Ireland,  in  our 
own  times :  and  it  may  be  enough  now  to  refer 
to  the  melancholy  fate  of  those  persons  who  were 
excommunicated  in  1791,  for  their  civil  conduct 
in  those  memorable  transactions,  and  whose  mis- 
fortunes have  been  so  often  and  so  feelingly 
lamented  by  the  English  Roman  Catholics.  Such 
sentences  are  derogatory  to  the  civil  rights  of 
the  subject,  and  in  this  free  Country  they  should 
no  longer  be  endured. 

Sir,  I  complain  equally  that  other  Conces- 
sions also  have  been  omitted,  which  should 
have  been  inserted  in  this  Bill  of  Relief;  and 
more  especially  those,  which  respect  the  legal 
right  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Soldier  to  his  own 
mode  of  Worship  (a  topic  heretofore  loudly 
urged  within  these  walls);  the  exemption  also 
of  the  Roman  Catholics  from  the  obligation  to 
solemnize  their  Marriages  in  Protestant  churches, 
and  the  protection  of  their  places  of  Worship  in 

clarare  Societatem  Jesu  in  Anglid  (ciim  civilis  Potestas  eidem 
recipiendae  ac  revocandae  repugnet)  tiondum  restitutam  censeri ; 
qimmvis  generatim  ita  restituta  sit,  ut,  si  Gubernium  illam  ad- 
mittere  vellet,  opus  non  esset  peculiari  Apostolica  Concessions 
ut  eadem  Societas  in  Anglia  recipietur,'' — 18  April  1820. 

d2 


36 


37 


Ireland  from  insult  and  outrage,  by  laws  as  effec- 
tual as  those  which  now  prevail  in  England. 

Why  were  not  some  provisions  for  remedying 
these  acknowledged  grievarsce^  embodied  and  in- 
serted into  this  lull  o\  relief?  To  peaceable 
and  cm^cientious  i{  man  Catholics,  they  could 
not  be  otherwise  than  acceptable.  But  omis- 
sions like  these  all  tend  to  demonstrate,  that 
Religious  Liberty  has  not  been  the  real  object  of 
the  promoters  of  this  Bill,  wliose  provisions  and 
enactments  point  to  nothing  but  Political  Ascen- 
dency. 

With  these  subordinate  concessions,  however, 
I  must  nevertheless  repeat  my  strong  protest 
against  all  those  larger  innovations,  which,  ac- 
cording to  the  language  of  Mr.  P  rki .  tend  to 
change  the  ruling  character  of  tixe  state.  And 
when  it  is  said,  that  these  dangers  are  visionary, 
we  reply,  that  what  to-day  boems  to  them  unreal, 
may  to-morrow  display  its  reality.  All  these  are 
departures  from  l*rinciple.  The  mischief  is  in 
making  the  breach  ;  and  if  the  barriers  are  thrown 
down,  though  the  first  influx  of  the  tide  may  be 
unalarming,  it  will  be  t«  u  hite  tu  repair  to  it, 
when  the  full  flood  is  come  upon  us. 

With  respect  to  the  proposed  guards  and  Se- 
curities, which  constitute  the  latter  half  of  this 
Bill,  they  consist  partly  of  Oaths,  and  partly  of 
Regulations  for  Ecclesiastical  Appointments,  and 
the  restriction   of   Foreign    Intercourse. 


As  to  Oaths  : — I  do  not  think  they  are  to  be 
undervalued ;  but  they  cannot  be  accepted  with- 
out some  discrimination.  Upon  enlightened  and 
honourable  minds,  I  do  not  doubt  tliuir  obliga- 
tory force.  It  must  not  however  be  forgotten, 
that  the  minds  of  the  great  iria>s  of  Roman 
Catholic  population  are  in  a  state  of  darkness, 
and  absolute  subjugation  to  the  Priesthood.  Of 
the  particular  structure  of  these  Oaths  I  shall 
not  now  enter  into  any  discussion ;  a  matter 
upon  which  the  Honourable  Baronet  opposite 
to  me  (Sir  John  Hippisley)  is  comueti  rit  to  aive 
the  House  much  important  information.  liut 
that  they  are  not  to  be  entirely  relied  iiii  i, 
is  apparent  by  the  very  conduct  of  the  frien  i- 
of  the  Bill,  and  by  the  necessity  they  have  kit 
of  superadding  other  Regulations  to  enforce  the 
same  purposes.  We  must  also  bear  in  mind  ly 
whom  these  Oaths  are  to  be  interpreted,  and 
how  they  have  been  interpreted.  Nor  can  we 
shut  our  eyes  against  the  notorious  fact,  that  the 
Sovereign  Pontiff,  not  in  ancient  times,  but  so 
lately  as  in  the  year  1809,  by  a  solemn  instruc- 
tion to  the  Prelates  of  his  church,  has  command- 
ed them  to  distinguish  between  tlu;  {  ahMve  oaths 
which  may  be  taken,  and  the  active  oaths  which 
may  not  be  taken,  by  the  Roman  Catholic^  ui 
any  heretical  state;  and  has  declared,  tliat  all 
oaths  taken  to  the  prejudice  of  the  church  are 
null  and  void.* 

*  See    16th   Canon,  3d  Council  of  Lateran.      "  Non  enim 


38 


39 


Nor,  Sir,  are  these  doctrines  to  be  found  in 
Italy  alone ;  it  is  well  known  to  the  Honourable 
!  ronet,  and  probably  to  many  other  members 
of  this  House,  that  in  London  also,  and  within 
the  last  eight  and  forty  hours,  distinctions  of  the 
same  sort  have  been  promulgaiud  ui  ilic  name 
and  by  the  authority  of  a  leading  Prelate  of  the 
Roman  Catholic  church,  and  circulated  through- 
out this  metropolis. 

A^  to  the  Regulations  of  liic  Clergy,  and  the 
restrictions  of  Foreign  Intercourse,  for  the  pur- 
pose of  giving  U5  some  JJomestic  Security  against 
foreign  encroachments,  (whether  the  Concessions 
now  proposed,  or  any,  or  none,  are  to  be  granted), 
these,  I  think,  are  necessary  matters  for  legisla- 
tion ;  I  have  said  so  before,  and  I  say  so  still. 

Upon  the  modes  of  Nomination,  I  think  the 
Commission,  as  originally  proposed,  was  objec- 
tionable with  reference  to  the  Crown,  as  well  as 
to  the  Roman  Catholics.  The  present  is  less 
objectionable  as  to  the  Crown,  but  probably  is 
not  rendered  more  acceptable  to  the  Roman 
Catholics :  and  I  should  have  much  preferred  the 
mode  of  direct  appointment  by  the  Crown,  as  I 
understand,  from  the  Honourable  Baronet,  it  has 

dicenda  sunt  Juramenta,  sed  potius  Perjuria,  quae  contra  Utili. 
tatem  Ecclesiasticam  et  Sanctorum  Patrum  veniuut  Instituta;" 
and  Instructions  to  Subjects  of  the  Holy  See,  signed  Gabrielli, 
12  May,  1808 ;  and  Circular  Letter  to  tlie  Cardinals,  30  Aug. 
1809. — Relation  de  ce  qui  est  passe  a  Rome  dans  I'Envahisse- 
ment  du  St.  Siege ;  Londres,  1812. 


/ 


been  practised  already  in  Canada,  and,  as  the 
Noble  Lord  informs  us,  has  actually  taken  place 
within  his  own  department,  a^  lu  Malta. 

But,  Sir,  upon  this  head  I  inu  i  particularly 
intreat  the  attention  of  the  Committee,  to  the 
necessity  of  excluding  the  Regular  clergy  from 
all  such  situations.  The  Reiriilar  clergy,  it  is 
well  known,  over  and  above  their  imperfect  Alle- 
giance to  their  Temporal  Sovereign,  and  their 
Allegiance  also  to  the  Sovereign  Pontiff,  owe  also 
another  Allegiance  each  to  the  General  cif  his 
own  Order.*  The  General  of  the  order  of  the 
Jesuits  is  to-day  in  Russia,  to-morrow  he  may 
be  in  France ;  the  General  of  the  Dominicans 
was  in  Spain,  and  is  now  I  believe  at  Rome  ; 
and  although  Dr.  Troy,  now  the  titular  arch- 
bishop  of  Dublin,  is  himself  a  Dominican,  1  con- 
fess I  do  not  wish  to  see  others  of  the  same 
description  in  the  same  situations. 

I  think  also,  that  to  exercise  the  office  of 
Apostolic  Vicar  within  this  realm,  should  be  ex- 
pressly prohibited.  The  Apostolic  Vicars  are  the 
direct  diplomatic  Agents  of  the  Papal  See,  go- 
verning ecclesiastically  hi  f  a  million  of  His 
Majesty's  subjects  in  Great  Britain.  By  their 
offices  they  are  bound  to  execute  the  mandates 

"^  The  Superior  of  Stonyhurst  in  England,  and  Clongowes 
Wood  (or  Castle  Brown)  in  Ireland,  assisted  at  Rome  in  the 
election  of  the  present  General  of  the  Jesuits. — See  also  Dr. 
Doyle  s  Evidence  before  the  Lords,  p.  389. 


40 

of  the  Pope,  without  the  power  of  hesitation  or 
deliberation;  and  these  mandates,  so  delivered, 
the  great  majority  of  the  English  Roman  Catho- 
lics have  conceived  themselves  conscientiously 
bound  to  obey.  This  was  the  complaint  loudly 
made  by  the  English  R.  man  Catholics  in  1790; 
and  it  is  for  their  protection,  as  well  as  for  our 
own  safety,  that  no  such  Office  should  be  tolerated 
within  the  King's  dominions. 

The  restriction  of  Foreign  Intercourse,  as  ori- 
ginally provided  for  by  the  supplemental  clauses 
of  the  Right  Honourable  Gentleman  (Mr.  Canning), 
did  not  appear  to  me  to  be  in  any  degree  effec- 
tual to  its  own  ends.  The  mode  now  adopted  is 
certainly  a  considerable  improvement.  But  means 
are  still  left  for  withdrawing  some  branches  of 
this  intercourse  from  State  inspection;  and  the 
reserve  consists  in  whatever  a  Roman  Catholic 
Prelate  shall  certify  to  be  ''  personal  and  spi- 
ritual." Now  this  exception  may  endanger  the 
whole  effect  of  the  provision  ;  and  here  will  always 
be  found  the  ultimate  difficulty  of  securing  to  the 
State  all  the  knowledge  whieli  it  ought  to  pos- 
sess, of  what  may  be  otherwise  concealed  under 
thi'=j  separate  and  secret  Intercourse. 

t^  Sir,  after  all,  it  t  us  not  overrate  the  value 
of  these  guards  and  securities.  Good  they  may 
be,  as  measures  of  state  police,  and  desirable 
additions  to  our  statute  law,  whether  accompanied 
or  not  with  any  further  concession.     Let  no  man 


41 

however,  mistakenly  accept  them  as  that  just 
equivalent  for  which  he  is  to  barter  away  the 
strength  of  our  own  Protestant  Constitution. 

Amongst  the  Roman  Catholic  population  of 
the  United  Kingdom,  their  faith  in  the  Papal  Su- 
premacy will  continue  fixed  and  unalterable. 
Their  Prelates,  however  nominated,  will  still  in- 
culcate the  same  doctrine,  and  bow  with  the 
same  implicit  obedience  to  the  Papal  authority. 
And  this  Spiritual  Jurisdiction,  we  have  been 
distinctly  told  by  the  highest  Roman  Catholic 
authority  in  England,  can  be  completely  exer- 
cised, if  necessary,  by  mere  personal  agency; 
utterly  passing  by  all  these  ostensible  Securities, 
and  without  the  formal  intervention  of  aiiv  written 
instrument  or  document,  or  any  State  control 
whatsoever. 

This,  Sir,  is  that  Spiritual  Supremacy  of  the 
Sovereign  Pontiff,  however  exercised,  (and  let 
all  Englishmen  remember  it,)  which  Lord  Cla- 
rendon and  Lord  Somers  as  Statesmen,  Mr. 
Locke  as  a  political  Philosopher,  and  king 
William  as  a  Sovereign,  all  deemed  to  be  incom- 
patible with  the  Protestant  Constitution  of  these 
realms.  And  this  usurped  dominion,  although 
it  may  be  now  subdued  and  eclipsed  for  a  lime 
in  France,  has  recently  blazed  forth  in  Spam, 
and  we  may  be  well  assured  never  can  be  a 
harmless  guest,  much  less  a  safe  Co-estate,  with 
the  Government  of  any  country  under  heaven. 

Such  is  the  outline  of  those  considerations  upon 


li     i 


42 

which  my  vote  will  be  founded,  respecting  each 
of  the  prominent  parts  of  this  Bill.  I  have  thought 
it  better  to  state  them  all  at  once,  that  the  Com- 
mittee may  be  spared  the  trouble  of  hearing  me 
again  at  any  length  in  its  further  progress.  But  I 
feel  it  incumbent  upon  me  to  repeat,  that  in  my 
opinion,  the  great  stand  to  be  made  for  the  pre- 
servation of  our  constitution  in  Church  and  State, 
must  be,  against  the  Admission  of  Roman  Catho- 
lics to  seats  in  Parliament ;  a  concession  which 
would  virtually  accomplish,  and  at  no  distant 
period,  their  admission  into  every  other  branch 
of  Political  Power;  and  an  event  which  I  dread, 
and  deprecate,  and  shall  think  it  my  duty  to  re- 
sist to  the  uttermost. 

I  therefore  beg  leave  now  to  move,  that  the 
words  *'  to  sit  and  vote  in  either  House  of  Par- 
liament," in  the  first  clause,  be  left  out  of  this 
Bill. 

And  after  a  Debate  thereupon,  the  question  being  put,  *'  That 
these  words  do  stand  part  of  the  Clause,"  the  Committee  di- 
vided—Ayes to  the  right,  247;  Noes  to  the  left,  251 ;  Majo- 
rity, 4 — and  so  the  question  passed  in  the  Negative. 

Resolved,  That  the  Chairman  do  now  leave  the  Chair. 


43 


III. 


On  the  1\st  of  June  ^  1822. — Upon  the  motion  made  in  the'House 
of  Lords  by  the  Duke  of  Portland,  for  the  second  reading  of  the 
Bill,  "To  provide  that  Peers  of  the  United  Kingdom  (being  other- 
wise duly  qualified)  may  exercise  their  right  of  sitting  and  voting 
in  Parliament,  without  taking  the  Oaths  and  making  the  Decla- 
ration therein  referred  to," — The  Lord  Colchester  rose,  and  spoke 
as  follows  ; 


My  Lords, 
Differing  entirely  from  the  Noble  Duke  upon 
the  important  measure  which  he  has  brought 
under  our  consideration,  I  am  desirous  of  stating 
briefly  to  your  Lordships,  the  grounds  upon  which 
I  must  endeavour  to  arrest  its  further  progress. 

If,  indeed,  this  day  were  set  apart  for  declaring 
the  sense  of  Parliament  upon  the  high  and  dis- 
tinsfuished  character  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Peers 
of  the  United  Kingdom,  the  illustrious  exploits 
of  their  ancestors,  or  their  own  personal  merits, 
I  beg  leave  to  assure  your  Lordships,  with  the 
most  perfect  sincerity,  that  there  is  no  man  living 
would  concur  more  cheerfully  or  zealously  than 
myself,  in  the  expression  or  recognition  of  every 
sentiment  which  could  redound  to  their  praise 
and  honour. 

But,  My  Lords,  it  is  impossible  for  me,  upon 


h 


44 

any  such  considerations,  to  concur  in  this  Bill, 
which  by  express  enactment,  or  direct  conse- 
quence, delivers  to  His  Majesty's  Roman  Ca- 
tholic subjects  at  large,  the  keys  of  both  Houses 
of  Parliament;  a  measure  studiously  framed  for 
obtaining,  immediately  and  separately,  the  con- 
cession of  a  general  principle  in  aid  of  the  Roman 
Catholic  claims,  which  concession  may  be  after- 
wards brought  to  account,  and  turned  to  advan- 
tage, upon  our  future  discussions  ;  and  this  mea- 
sure is  represented  to  us  now,  as  the  mere  repeal 
of  certain  laws  of  exclusion,  as  if  they  had  re- 
sulted only  from  the  crisis  of  an  unfounded  popu- 
lar panic  * 

This  exclusion,  however,  if  examined  histori- 
cally, will  be  found  to  have  originated  in  the 
general  spirit  of  our  legislation,  long  antece- 
dent to  that  period,  commencing  from  the  laws 
passed  in  the  reign  of  Elizabeth, |  against  all 
Roman  Catholic  recusants  indiscriminately,  and 
continuing  down  to  the  period  of  the  Test  Act, 
and  the  practice  of  the  House  of  Commons,  to 
remove  its  own  Roman  Catholic  members; J  no 
Roman  Catholic  then  sitting  in  either  House  of 
Parliament  but  by  sufferance.  The  Exclusion 
established  by  the  Act  of  Charles  n,§  was  after- 

♦  The  Popish  Plot,  1678. 
f  Stat.  Eliz.  23,  29,  35,  1581,  1593. 

I  Strickland  and  Swale's  cases.     Com.  Journ.  IX.  393,  501 ; 
1676,  1678. 
§  30  Car.  II.  st  2,  1678.    And  see  the  cases  of  30  Car.  II.  st. 

2,  1678.     And  see  the  cases  of  Sir  Henry  Momison,  sent  for 


45 


wards  substantially  recognized  and  adopted  at 
the  Revolution,  by  the  Prince  of  Orange's  de- 
claration from  the  Hague*  requiring  that  Roman 
Catholics  should  be  shut  out  from  both  Houses 
of  Parliament — by  the  summoning  of  a  Protestant 
Parliament — and  by  the  Bill  of  Rights  t  enacted 
for  the  safety  of ''  this  Protestant  kingdom"  with 
a  Protestant  king.  The  like  Exclusion  was  for- 
mally and  specifically  enacted  as  to  Scotland,  and 
incorporated  in  the  very  Act  of  Union, J  which 
requires,  that  the  representative  Peers  and  Com- 
moners, and  their  Electors  also,  should  all  be 
Protestant.  And  this  exclusion,  after  the  in- 
terval of  three  reigns  from  that  of  Charles  the 
Second,  was  again  deliberately  confirmed  and 
applied  to  the  whole  of  Great  Britain,  in  the  first 
year  of  the  accession  of  the  House  of  Hano- 
ver ;  §  and  again  in  the  reign  of  George  the  Se- 

by  the  House  of  Commons,  who  declining  to  take  the  Oaths, 
&c.  is  discharged  from  being  a  jM ember,  and  a  new  writ  is 
ordered,  13th  May,  1689.  Com.  Journ.  X.  p.  131.  And  the  like 
case  of  the  Lord  Viscount  Fanshawe  on  the  same  day,  p.  131 
and  188  ;  also  that  of  John  Archdall,  a  Quaker y  discharged  for 
the  like  cause.  Com.  Journ.  XII.  386,  388. — That  of  Francis 
Cholmely,  committed  for  contempt  in  refusing  to  take  the  Oaths, 
9  January,  1689.  Com.  Journ.  X.  143,  328.  So  of  Lewis  Pryse, 
expelled  for  the  like  cause,  23d  of  March,  1715.  Com.  Journ. 
XVIII.  p.  411  and  654. 

♦  In  M.  Fagel's  Letter  to  Mr.  Stewart,  1687. 

t  1  W.  M.  Sess.  2,  c.  2,  1688. 

:  St.  5  Anne,  e.  8,  1708. 

§  1  Geo.  I.  c.  13,  §  16,  1714. 


46 


47 


cond;*  the  last  of  these  Statutes  confiraiing  all 
the  former  securities  by  express  words,  and  de- 
claring them  to  be  in  as  full  force,  as  if  every 
clause  and  provision  of  the  former  Acts  vv^ere 
therein  inserted  and  reenacted.-j" 

Such,  My  Lords,  are  the  origin  and  spirit  of 
our  Policy ;  and  such  are  the  Laws  now  existing 
upon  this  important  point.  And  we  have  been 
often  counselled  by  the  wisest  of  our  ancestors, 
that  Laws  founded  upon  a  general  Principle,  such 
as  this  distrust  of  political  power  in  Roman  Ca- 
tholic hands,  although  originating  in  a  particu- 
lar danger  which  has  itself  ceased  to  exist,  may 
nevertheless  be  rightly  retained^  as  safeguards 
against  all  other  sorts  of  danger  which  fall  within 

♦  9  Geo.  II.  c.  26,  §  6,  1736. 

+  By  the  English  Constitution,  as  settled  at  the  Revolution. 
First,  The  Parliament  must  he  Protestant,  The  Lords  and 
Commons  are  to  take  the  Oaths  of  Allegiance  and  Supremacy, 
and  subscribe  the  Declaration  against  Transubstantiation.  Stat. 
1  W.  and  M.  c.  1 ;  being  the  first  Act  passed  at  the  Revolution. 
Secondly,  Tlie  King  must  be  Protestant.  By  his  Coronation 
Oath  He  swears  to  maintain  the  Protestant  Reformed  Religion 
established  by  Law.  Stat.  1.  W.  and  M.  c.  6.  And  He  swears  also 
upon  his  Accession  to  preserve  inviolably  the  settlement  of  the 
Protestant  Church  of  Scotland.  Stat.  5.  Anne,  c.  8;  25th 
article  of  the  Union  with  Scotland.  The  rules  of  which  article 
shall  be  for  ever  held  and  adjudged  to  be  observed  as  fundamental 
and  essential  conditions  of  the  Union.  Moreover  by  the  Bill  of 
Rights,  1  W.  and  M.  Stat.  2,  c.  2,  §  9,  10.  He  must  not  only 
be  himself  Protestant,  but  if  He  marry  a  Rmnan  Catholic,  his 
People  are  absolved  from  their  Allegiance,  and  his  crown  de- 
scends to  his  next  Protestant  heir. 


> 


the  scope  of  the  same  Principle.  But  we  are 
now  told  by  the  supporters  of  the  present  measure, 
that  it  is  time  to  reverse  our  Policy,  and  to  repeal 
all  our  former  Laws  upon  this  subject,  and  that 
the  present  bill  is  the  first  and  fittest  step  to  be 
taken  towards  so  desirable  an  end. 

Upon  entering  on  this  new  course  of  Policy, 
and  considering  how  far  we  can  safely  proceed 
in  this  plan  of  repeal,  and  as  to  what  we  may 
do,  or  may  not  do,  in  the  way  of  Legislation,  if 
we  examine  the  ground  before  us  step  by  step, 
we  shall  be  enabled  to  judge  more  satisfactorily 
of  the  effect  and  bearings  of  the  particular  mea- 
sure which  we  are  desired  this  day  to  adopt. 
And  in  such  a  course,  I  have  always  thought 
that  little  should  be  done  upon  mere  importunity, 
nothing  upon  menaces,  (such  as  we  have  sometimes  - 
heard,)  but  every  thing  that  we  can  do  for  the 
ease  of  our  Roman  Catholic  fellow-subjects,  so 
far  as  it  can  be  done  with  safety  to  our  own 
Establishment  in  Church  and  State;  and  so  much, 
whatever  be  its  amount,  should,  i  think,  be  done 
freely  and  promptly  upon  its  own  fair  grounds  of 
justice  and  policy ;  and  having  done  that,  we  should 
there,  once  for  all,  make  our  firm  and  final  stand. 

Of  Civil  Rights,  I  have  always  been  of  opi- 
nion, that  the  whole  career  of  Honours  and  Emo- 
luments should  be  laid  open  to  the  Roman  Ca- 
tholic Dissenters,  as  much  as  to  the  Protestant 
Dissenters  from  our  National  Church,  short  only  of 
the  Ruling  powers  of  our  Protestant  church  and  go- 


48 

vernment.  I  rejoice  therefore,  in  the  wise  exercise 
of  Royal  Favour,  in  recently  calling  forth  Roman 
Catholics  of  the  highest  rank  to  aid  in  the  highest 
ceremonial  of  the  Royal  state  and  dignity;   and 
also  in  that  signal  mark  of  favour  bestowed  by 
the  Sovereign,  in  his  late  visit  to  Ireland,  upon 
the  most  eminent  of  his   Irish  Roman  Catholic 
subjects.     The  Bar,  the  Army,  and  the  Navy,  are 
already  open  to  them;  and  I  see  no  reason  what- 
ever, against  their  admissibility  to  employment 
in  all  the  services  connected  with  the  Revenue, 
in  all  its  various  branches.     It  may  be  also  matter 
of  fair  consideration,  to  equalize  the  condition  and 
privileges  of  all  Roman  Catholics  throughout  the 
United  Kingdom,  and  to  give  to  all  (so  far  as  may 
be  possible)  the  same  as  are  now  enjoyed  by  any 
in  any  part  of  it.     And  I  shall  be  glad  to  see  this 
course  proceed  with  no  limitation  to  the  favour 
and  munificence  of  the  Crown,  or  the  liberality 
of  Parliament,   as  to  those  offices,  which  (in  the 
language  of  Mr.  Burke*)  are  but  instrumental  in 
the  executiveadministration  of  the  State;  reserv- 
ing nevertheless,  and  carefully  reserving,  to  the 
King  s  Protestant  subjects,  all  those  higher  Offices 
which  constitute  its  supreme  Rule  and  government. 
Of  Religious  Toleration,  and  security  for  the 
Worship  peculiar  to  their  mode  of  Faith,  there 
cannot  be  too  much  granted ;  and  we  should  re- 
move every  painful  restriction  that  trenches  upon 
their  feelings,  and  adds  nothing  at  the  same  time 

*  Letter  to  Sir  H.  Langrishe,  1792. 


49 

to  our  defence.  Of  this  sort  would  be  the  more 
complete  protection  of  their  Worship  from  dis- 
turbance, if  they  need  it ;  and  the  removal  of  that 
necessity  w^hich  now  compels  them  to  celebrate 
their  Marriages  in  our  Church  *  from  whose  rites 
and  tenets  their  faith  is  abhorrent;  and  such  relief 
I  have  cause  to  know  was  in  the  contemplation 
of  a  lamented  friend,  once  the  First  Minister  of 
the  Crown,  whose  life  and  power  were  unhappily 
and  violently  cut  short  by  a  premature  fate. 

But,  My  Lords,  the  Policy  of  our  Protestant 
Grovernment  still  requires  the  continuance  of  our 
other  existing  restrictions,  upon  all  that  concerns 
the  ostentatious  display  of  their  Worship ;  we 
must  have  no  Stately  churches,  no  Processions 
in  our  streets,  no  Monastic  establishments  in  our 
realm,  such  as  Castle-Browne,  and  Ampleforth, 
and  Stoneyhurst,  with  their  Jesuit  professors, 
priests,  and  missionaries ;  foundations  erected  in 
defiance  of  express  law,-)*  and  whose  proceedings 
loudly  call  on  the  Government  and  Parliament  for 
public  investigation.  On  this  head  also,  in  addi- 
tion to  the  enactments  of  our  present  laws,  w^e 
shall  do  well  to  bear  in  mind  the  plain  policy  and 
express  provision  of  the  famous  Edict  of  Nantes,  J 

*  Marriage  Act,  26  II.  c.  33,  excepts  Jews  and  Quakers. 

f  Irish  Stat.  9,  W.  Ill,  c.  1,  §  8;— 8  Anne  c.  3,  §  30;—21, 
22  Geo.  III.  c.  24,  §  8  ;—and  English  Stat.  31  Geo.  III.  c.  32, 
§11,  and  §17. 

X  Edict  of  Nantes,  article  15. — No  Protestant  worship  in 
the  army,  "  si  nou  aux  quartiers  des  chefs  qui  en  feront  pro- 
fession." 


/ 


50 


which  forbids  the  Public  exercise  of  any  other 
than  the  dominant  Religion  in  our  fleets  and 
armies  ;  a  possible  attempt,  in  the  present  growth 
of  Roman  Catholic  pretensions,  and  which  no  man 
who  values  the  safety  of  the  State,  can  contem- 
plate without  just  alarm. 

With  respect  to  the  Clergy  of  the  Church 
of  Rome,  as  dissenters  fromour  National  Church,  I 
think  it  is  needless  and  unwise  any  longer  to 
refuse  the  recognition  of  their  existence  as  a 
body.  Nor  do  I  see,  why  the  Sovereign  may 
not  in  England,  as  he  was  rightly  advised  to 
do  in  Ireland,  receive  their  petitions  and  addresses 
in  that  character,  as  well  as  those  of  the  Pro- 
testant Dissenting  Ministers  (as  they  are  called) 
of  the  Three  denominations. 

But  here.  My  Lords,  the  necessity  arises  for 
new  laws  to  regulate  this  Ecclesiastical  body; 
and  the  Sovereign  and  the  State  have  a  right  to 
demand,  that  no  Ecclesiastical  authority  shall  be 
exercised  in  this  realm,  by  aliens,  nor  by  natives 
long  expatriated,  nor  by  students  educated  (as 
they  now  are)  under  Jesuit  professors  at  Rome, 
nor  by  members  professed  of  any  Monastic  order ; 
we  should  have  no  Archpriests,  no  Vicars  Apos- 
tolic, the  mere  diplomatic  agents  and  instruments 
of  the  court  of  Rome  ;  no  Ecclesiastics  should  be 
recognized  but  those  of  Episcopal  and  Secular 
character,  whose  powers  and  duties  are  defined 
by  the  canon  law,  and  those  individuals  to  be 
subject  to  the  approbation  of  the  Crown. 


51 


Further,  My  Lords,  the  Policy  of  all  Europe,  in 
Protestant,  and  even  in  Roman  Catholic  States, 
requires  that  the  Intercourse  of  their  subjects  with 
the  See  of  Rome,  be  placed  under  the  direct 
inspection  and  control  of  the  Crown  ;  and  the  de- 
tails of  the  necessary  Regulations,  as  substantiated 
by  the  Report  from  a  Committee  of  the  other 
House  of  Parliament  communicated  to  this  House, 
are  now  the  standing  diplomatic  code  of  every 
nation  in  Europe,  except  our  own.  We  must 
re-cast  the  provisions  of  the  Statute  of  Elizabeth  ;* 
and  this  is  a  work  indispensably  necessary,  what- 
ever else  is  to  be  done,  and  independently  of  all 
other  measures.  For  Lord  Clarendon  has  long  since 
truly  told  us,'|'  that  it  is  vain  to  legislate  concern- 
ing the  Roman  Catholic  Laity,  unless  you  also 
bind  their  Clergy ;  for  they  turn  things  Civil  into 
things  Spiritual  at  their  pleasure  ;  and  holding  in 
servitude  the  conscience,  they  do  therefore  govern 
also  the  actions  of  the  Laitv. 

Such  Privileges  as  I  have  presumed  to  specify, 
and  any  others  of  the  like  degree,  but  under  such 
limitations  and  regulations  as  I  have  suggested, 
may  and  ought,  in  my  opinion,  to  be  granted 
freely  and  promptly ;  but  no  Political  Power  in 
the  ruling  offices  of  the  State,  no  seats  in  the  Su- 
preme Courts  of  Justice,  none  in  the  Royal  Coun- 

*  13  Eliz.  c.  2. 

t  Lord  Clarendon.      Discourse  on  Religion  and   Policy,  p. 
667,  679. 

E  2 


52 

cils,  none  in  our  Houses  of  Parliament.  Our 
Protestant  Ascendency  must  be  paramount,  or 
we  shall  have  in  no  long  time  a  Roman  Catholic 
Domination.  Let  us  not  deceive  ourselves.  These 
two  claims  to  Power  are  utterly  incompatible  and 
irreconcileable. 

The  Principles  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Religion 
are  in  direct  hostility  to  the  Reformed  Religion ; 
and  the  basis  of  my  refusal  to  admit  Roman  Ca- 
tholics to  the  supreme  offices  of  the  State,  is  found- 
ed in  my  conviction  of  their  sincerity  in  the  Reli- 
gion they  profess. 

If  you  ask  for  the  Evidence  of  this  hostility,  it 
is  prominent  and  undeniable  ;  not  drawn  from 
Transalpine  authority,  nor  from  Spanish  bigotry, 
but  from  the  highest  authority  in  the  Roman 
Catholic  church  of  France,  from  the  writings 
of  the  acknowledged  champion  of  the  Liberties 
of  the  Gallican  church,  the  celebrated  Bossuet, 
whose  Exposition  of  the  Roman  Catholic  doc- 
trines is  still  the  manual  of  the  faithful ;  and  in 
his  great  work  upon  the  Variations  of  the  Pro- 
testant Reformers  from  the  true  Standard  of 
Faith,  we  are  told  again  and  again  : — 

'*  The  exercise  of  the  power  of  the  sword  in 
matters  of  religion  and  conscience,  is  a  point  not 
to  be  called  in  question.  There  is  no  illusion 
more  dangerous  than  to  make  Toleration  a  charac- 
teristic of  the  true  Church.* 

*  Bossuet  Hist,  des  Variations.  Livre  x. 


53 

"  The  Church  of  Rome  is  the  most  intolerant  of 
all  Christian  sects.* 

''  It  is  her  holy  and  inflexible  incompatibility 
which  renders  her  severe,  unconciliatory,  and 
odious  to  all  sects  separated  from  her.  They 
desire  only  to  be  tolerated  by  her ;  but  her  holy 
seventy  forbids  suck  indulgence.'' 

These  doctrines,  renewed  as  they  have  been  in 
our  own  times  by  the  Pontifical  authority  itself,!  it 
is  in  vain  for  the  Roman  Catholic  Laity  to  disclaim, 
unless  their  Clergy  also,  in  whose  hands  their 
conscience  is  placed,  shall  now  come  forward  and 
openly  renounce  this  hostility. 

We  are  told,  I  know,  that  our  fears  are  never- 
theless visionary,  and  the  dangers  we  apprehend 
are  unreal ;  that  we  who  oppose  these  claims  to 
power  miscalculate  their  strength,  and  misrepre- 
sent the  spirit  of  the  Roman  Catholic  church  in 
the  present  times  ;— that  what  once  was  hostile, 
is  now  changed  and  mitigated  ;— that  other  States 
wisely  adopt  a  more  liberal  policy  ;— and  finally, 
that  whatever  be  the  Principles  of  the  Roman 
Catholics,  their  Numbers  are  too  disproportionate 
to  ours,  in  this  House,  to  give  us  cause  for  alarm. 

Upon  each  of  these  points,  a  few  words  may 
suffice.  And  first,  as  to  the  mitigated  spirit  of 
Hostility  to  our  Church  in  modern  times. 

All  who  have  visited  the  Continent  of  late 
years,  will,  I  am  sure,  be  forward  to  allow,  that 

*  Hist,  des  Variations,  Sixi^me  Avertissement. 

t  Circular  Letter  of  Pius  VII,  to  the  Cardinals,  5  Feb.  1808. 


54 

the  dignified  simplicity,  and  unaffected  piety  of 
the  reigning  Pontiff,  and  the  courteous  attentions 
of  his  ruling  Ministers  to  foreigners  of  all  nations, 
and  of  England  more  especially,  do  justly  com- 
mand our  respect  and  grateful  acknowledgement. 
But  it  is  not  upon  such  grounds  that  we  must 
legislate  concerning  the  defences  of  our  Protest- 
ant Government.  For  history  has  recorded  the 
circular  mandates,*  issued  by  the  present  Pontiff 
himself,  when  torn  from  his  dominions,  and  carried 
into  exile,  by  the  brutal  violence  of  France  ;  man- 
dates replete  with  the  doctrines  which  we  have 
most  cause  to  dread  ;  and  history  will  not  fail  to 
record  also,  that,  upon  his  restoration,  he  has  re- 
peopled  Italy  with  Monks  of  all  orders,  and  re- 
vived the  Jesuits,  whom  all  Europe  had  pro- 
scribed ;  and  has  opened  the  way  for  a  Jesuit 
confessor  to  stand  once  more  by  the  throne  of  a 
monarch,  f  And  amongst  the  latest  proofs  of  the 
same  unchangeable  hostility  to  Protestants,  as 
such,  the  Court  of  Rome  has  recently  refused  to 
protect  from  insult  and  destruction  the  Protestant 
Tombs  which  have  been  erected  within  the  walls 
of  Rome  ;  and  has  refused  this  reasonable  request 
to  the  joint  solicitation  of  all  the  Protestants  of 
Europe  there  resident,  though  strongly  urged  by 
the  Diplomatic  Representative  of  one  great  Pro- 
testant power,;}:  and  repeatedly  pressed  by  the  Pre- 


*  5  Feb.  1808.  f  King  of  Sardinia,  1822. 

I  The  Envoy  of  Prussia. 


55 

sumptive  Heir  of  another  Protestant  Sovereign,  * 
an  illustrious  person,  now  no  stranger  to  the 
habits  and  institutions  of  this  country,  f 

But  then.  My  Lords,  we  are  next  desired  to 
withdraw  our  views  from  Transalpine  or  Trans - 
appennine  Rome  ;  not  to  look  to  the  dark  dogmas 
of  the  Vatican,  or  to  the  superstitious  credulity 
of  a  people  who  could  attest  or  believe  in  the 
modern  Miracles  of  1797  or  1811 :  J  we  are  de- 
sired to  come  forth  and  look  upon  the  map  of 
enlightened  Europe,  and  take  example  from  the 
more  liberal  policy  of  other  States,  which  rule 
over  a  mixed  population  of  different  modes  of 
faith. 

Be  it  so.  And  what  shall  we  find  here  ?  Roman 
Catholic  Sovereigns,  such  as  France,  Austria, 
and  Saxony  (for  Spain  and  Portugal  are  blotted 
out  and  of  no  value  in  such  a  question),  ruling 
Protestant  subjects ;  and  Protestant  Sovereigns, 


♦  The  Prince  of  Denmark,  then  in  England. 

t  This  refusal  was  communicated  by  the  Prince  of  Denmark 
in  1821,  througli  Lord  Colchester,  to  the  Protestants  then  re- 
siding in  Rome.  The  Burial  Place  has  been  since  surrounded 
by  a  wall. 

t  See  ''  Miraculous  Appearance  of  the  Images  of  the  Blessed 
Virgin  opening  their  Eyes  in  various  parts  of  the  Roman  State, 
between  9  July  1726  and  January  1797,"  1  vol.  8vo.  published 
at  Rome,  1797,  by  D.  Gio.  Marchetti,  Esaminatore  Apostolico; 
with  962  Attestations,  by  persons  of  the  highest  rank  and  credit. 

Also,  the  Miraculous  Extases  of  Pope  Pius  Vll,  at  Savona, 
in  June,  August,  and  September,  1811,  engraved  and  circulated 
throughout  Italy. 


56 


57 


t  M     f 


such  as  Prussia,  Sweden,  Denmark,  and  the 
Netherlands,  ruling  over  Roman  Catholic  sub- 
jects. 

Of  these,  the  Roman  Catholic  Sovereign  has 
nothing  to  fear,  from  the  admission  of  Protest- 
ant subjects  to  Political  Power ;  for  the  Pro- 
testant has  no  Foreign  connexion,  no  proselyting 
spirit  in  his  Religion,  and  he  may  be  put  down 
with  the  stroke  of  a  pen. 

The  Protestant  Sovereign  has,  in  every  in- 
stance, jealously  bound  his  Roman  Catholic  sub- 
ject from  any  unauthorized  intercourse  with  Rome ; 
and  he  can  equally  dismiss  him,  if  troublesome, 
by  the  same  short  process. 

There  is  amongst  these  no  case  parallel  to  ours. 
Arbitrary  Governments  and  Limited  Governments 
stand  on  a  different  footing,  as  to  the  Power  and 
privileges  which  they  can  safely  allow  to  the 
different  classes  of  their  subjects ,  and  there 
exists  no  other  country  but  this,  where  charac- 
ter, talents,  and  popular  credit,  can  raise  any 
subject  instantly  to  that  eminence  which  com- 
mands an  entrance  into  the  service  of  his  sove- 
reign, and  gives  him  an  effective  share  in  the 
ruling  councils  of  the  State,  for  its  preservation, 
or  for  its  destruction,  as  the  event  may  prove. 

It  is  urged,  in  the  last  place,  that  the  danger 
which  we  object  to  the  present  measure,  must 
have  reference  to  the  Numbers  of  those  whose 
pretensions,  if  admitted,  are  to  create  the  danger. 

This   is  undoubtedly  true.     But  we   must   be 


careful,  not  to  lay  what  ought  to  be  the  durable 
foundations  of  our  Legislation,  upon  shifting 
grounds.  In  Legislation,  as  in  every  other  pru- 
dential and  practical  question,  we  should  consider 
to-morrow  as  to-day.  And  it  is  amazing  to  me, 
that  any  persons  of  ordinary  sagacity  can  fail  to 
foresee,  that  the  paucity  of  present  ^^n  mbers 
affords  no  security  against  their  future  increase. 

Any  powerful  Minister  of  the  Crown,  who 
advocates  measures  like  the  present,  with  a  strong 
sense  of  the  injustice  which  (according  to  his  view) 
the  existing  families  who  constitute  the  Roman 
Catholic  Gentry  have  long  suffered,  may,  and 
ought,  upon  his  own  principles,  to  make  them 
speedy  and  full  compensation  for  their  long  in- 
tercepted honours.  In  the  reign  of  Queen  Anne, 
we  have  a  precedent  for  a  simultaneous  addition 
to  our  Peerage  of  no  considerable  nmoiuit ;  and  in 
proportion  as  the  grievance  is  considered  to  have 
been  long,  heavy,  and  unjustifiable,  such  in  pro- 
portion would  naturally  be  the  reparation.  We 
might  well  look  to  have  in  our  House  a  much 
larger  importation  than  took  place  at  that  period  ; 
and  successive  Ministers,  under  the  occasional 
difficulties  which  beset  them,  when  the  gates  were 
set  open,  and  the  broad  path  paved,  might  and 
would  enlarge  the  number  without  stint  or  limit. 

By  irresistible  inference,  what  might  be  called 
equal  justice  should  be  done  also  with  respect 
to  the  other  House  of  Parliament.  The  Roman 
Catholic  Elector  must  be  allowed  to  elect  Roman 


58 


59 


■'I 


Catholic  Rrepresentatives  for  his  county,  whether 
in  England  or  Ireland  ;  and  I  leave  it  to  your  Lord- 
ships' meditation,  how  soon,  and  by  what  courses, 
political  ambition,  coupled  with  or  goaded  by  re- 
ligious zeal,  duly  directed,  might  gradually  ap- 
propriate to  itself,  by  the  wealth  of  ancient  and 
opulent  families,  much  also  of  that  description  of 
property  which  locally  influences  the  return  of 
other  members  to  the  Commons'  House  of  Par- 
liament. I  verily  believe  that  the  current  would 
set  strongly  and  constantly  in  that  direction,  and 
the   consequences  are  manifest. 

And  now.  My  Lords,  to  conclude  these  obser- 
vations, with  which  i  iiave  already  troubled  your 
Lordships  at  too  great  length. 

With  my  view  of  the  present  character  and 
future  consequences  of  this  measure,  by  which  a 
new  form  of  party  spirit  will  be  introduced  into 
both  Houses  of  Parliament,  directed  always  under 
all  circumstances  steadily  and  invariably  to  one 
and  the  same  sole  object;,  by  which,  polemics  will 
be  revived  in  our  Universities,  discord  spread 
through  our  Municipal  Corporations,  the  land 
peopled  with  more  Jesuit  establishments  for  the 
Education  of  our  youth,  and  a  restless  proselyting 
Clergy,  with  all  their  missionaries,  set  at  work 
throughout  the  country  ; — and  piuferring  as  I  do, 
the  national  character  and  habits  of  our  country 
as  they  now  prevail ;  the  sober  piety  of  our  Form 
of  Worship,  and  the  mild  and  tolerant  spirit  of 
the  Church    of  England,    rightly  Amderstood,   I 


must  of  necessity  vote  against  the  further  pro- 
gress of  this  Bill ;  and  I  shall  therefore  conclude, 
with  proposing  as  an  Amendment  to  the  original 
motion, — 

'*  That  instead  of  this  Bill  being  now  read  a 
second  time,  it  be  read  a  second  time  on  this  day 
six  months.'' 

After  Debate,  upon  the  Question  put:— "That  this  Bill  be 
noiv  read  a  second  time,  the  House  divided ;" 

Contents,  80,  Proxies  49 —Total  129 
Not  Content,   97,  74 171 


Majority  against  the  Bill,     42. 


r    f 


61 


IV. 


(hi  the  "lAth  of  May  1824.— The  two  Mowing  Bills  stood  for 
a  Second  Reading  in  the  House  of  Lords : 

1st.  *^To  repeal  so  much  of  an  Act  passdl   in   the  Sevciifh 
and  Eighth  Year  of  the  Reign  of  King  W  illiam  the  Third,  as 
relates  to  the  administering  the  Oath  of  Supremacy  to  Persons 
voting  at  the  Election  of  Members  of  Parliameiit. 
PI  2d.  "For  rendering  His  Majesty's  Roman  Cath  i      Sii!.jects 
in  Great  Britain,  eligible  to  certain  Civil  Offices,     i  !   it     n 
abling  His  Grace  the  present  Duke  of  Norfolk,  a)  i   i  i.    ..ue 
male,  and  his  and  their  deputies,   proiessing    the  H  iman   Ca 
tholic    Religion,   to  exercise  the    Offices    of    H,  rv ilifai\    ¥.tv\ 
Marshal  of   England,  and  Deputy  Earl  Marshal  of  England, 
without  taking  or  subscribing  the  Oath  of  Supremacy,  or  tlie 
Declarations  against  Transubstantiation,  Popery,  and  flip  Im-fy- 
cation  of  the  Virgin  Mary  and  the  Saints,  or  taking  the  Sacra- 
ment of  our  Lord's  Supper." 

And  upon  the  Motion  of  the  Marquess  of  Lansdowiit  lor  \uv 
Second  reading  of  the  Bill  first  named,  The  Lord  Colchester 
rose,  and  spoke  as  follows : — 


My  Lords, 
Upon  the  two  Bills  which  tht    X   fie  Mai(|iic  s^ 
has  this  day  brought  under  your  consideration, 
and  which,  for  the   convenience  of  the    Hciise, 

he  has  explained  and  di^-cusscd  conjointh-,  I 
am  desirous  to  state,  very  bneiiv,  mx  reasons 
for  the  Vote  which  I  shall  give. 


I  ! 


I  I 


62 

We  cannot  but  observe,  that  the  course  taken 
in  this  and  a  former  year  for  bringing  forward 
the  Claims  of  His  Majesty's  Roman  Catholic 
subjects  to  a  larger  share  of  Political  considera- 
tion and  Power,  has  been  materially  changed 
from  that  which  was  pursued  at  an  earlier  period 
of  these  discussions.  It  is  no  longer  an  endea- 
vour to  reach  the  highest  objects  of  their  ambi- 
tion by  one  great  effort ;  but  having  failed  in  that 
attempt,  they  now  adopt  the  slower  method  of 
approach,  beginning  from  the  inferior  steps,  and 
ascending  from  thence  to  the  more  important 
and  commanding  situations ;  a  course  altogether 
more  convenient  indeed  to  both  sides,  so  far  as  it 
places  each  Claim  more  distinctly  in  view,  and 
shows  better  what  it  may  possibly  be  safe  to 
grant,  and  what  it  is  most  important  to  resist. 

Upon  the  many  occasions  when  this  subject 
has  been  debated  in  either  House  of  Parliament, 
I  have  repeatedly  declared  for  my  own  part,  that 
I  should  be  at  all  times  desirous  of  granting  to 
the  Roman  Catholics  a  full  admission  to  all  situa- 
tions of  Emolument  or  Honour  short  of  those  which 
confer  any  Civil  or  Political  power,  authority, 
or  jurisdiction  in  our  Protestant  State.  And  I  am 
now  prepared  to  show  how  far,  according  to  the 
same  principle,  I  can  or  cannot  agree  to  the  seve- 
ralj  measures  proposed  in  these  two  Bills  ;  in 
doing  which  I  shall,  however,  take  the  liberty  of 
inverting  the  order  in  which  the  Noble  Marquess 
has  treated  the  same  topics. 


63 

In  the  first  place,  I  should  most  readily  concur 
in  receiving  any  proposition  for  restoring  to  the 
illustrious  House  of  Norfolk,  the  full  exercise  and 
enjoyment  of  their  hereditary  office  of  Earl  Mar- 
shal ;  that  office  having  long  since  lost  its  ancient 
powers,  and  retaining  now  no  other  attributes 
than  those  of  dignity,  rank,  and  honour.  But,  I 
think  also,  that  such  a  measure,  which  is  of  an  in- 
sulated and  personal  character,  should  be  made 
the  subject  of  a  separate  Bill  for  discussion,  ac- 
cording to  the  ordinary  course  of  Parliamentary 
proceedings. 

With  respect  to  the  admission  of  Roman  Ca- 
tholics to  employment  in  all  services  connected 
with  the  Public  Revenue  in  its  various  branches, 
this  evidently  is  a  distinct  consideration,  and  has 
no  connexion  whatever  with  the  propositions  which 
precede  or  follow  it.  But  however  much  I  might 
be  disposed  towards  such  a  concession,  it  is  im- 
possible for  me  to  make  it  now,  and  in  this  way, 
for  this  plain  reason,  that  it  would  put  the  Roman 
Catholic  Dissenters  upon  a  better  footing  than  the 
Protestant  Dissenters;  and  both  classes  must 
therefore  be  left  to  the  usual  protection  of  an 
Annual  Indemnity;  for  I  am  persuaded  that 
neither  this  House  nor  the  Country  at  large,  are 
prepared  as  yet  to  enter  upon  a  general  repeal  of 
the  Test  act. 

As  to  the  next  question  in  the  same  Bill,  the 
admission  of  the  Roman  Catholics  into  the  Com- 
mission of  the  Peace  ;  this  opens  an  entirely  new 


64 

field  of  argument,  inasmuch  as  it  asks  for  the 
possession  of  Judicial  offices ;  and  those  who 
might  feel  less  difficulty  in  conceding  the  two 
former  points,  must  feel  themselves  obliged  to 
reject  the  whole,  when  they  come  before  us  in- 
corporated in  a  Bill  which  is  to  work  so  great  a 
change  in  the  composition  and  character  of  the 
Magistracy.  And  I  cannot,  according  to  my 
principle,  agree  to  vote  for  this,  or  any  Bill  which 
shall  enable  Roman  Catholics  to  take  their  seats 
upon  the  bench  in  our  Courts  of  Justice,  and 
administer  the  civil  or  criminal  Jurisdictions  of 
the  Realm. 

But,  My  Lords,  whatever  may  be  the  fate  of 
the  Bill  to  which  I  have  hitherto  spoken,  I  must 
give  the  most  unqualified  opposition  to  the  other 
Bill  for  granting  the  Elective  Franchise  to  the 
Roman  Catholics  of  England ;  a  Bill,  of  which 
the  sole  and  undisguised  object  is,  to  give  Poli- 
tical Power,  so  far  as  it  goes,  and  to  serve  as  a 
stepping  stone  to  more  Political  Power  hereafter. 

If  this  Bill  pass  into  a  law,  our  Parliamentary 
Elections  will  assume  a  new  character.  We  shall 
see  at  many  an  election  new  scenes  of  strife  be- 
ginning ;  and  let  those  who  help  forward  such  a 
Bill,  look  well  to  the  consequences.  We  shall 
see,  not  only  the  old  and  salutary  conflict  of  Whig 
and  Tory,  and  the  partizans  of  the  Minister  of 
the  day  arrayed  against  his  ^  nonents,  but  we 
shall  see  also  the  introduction  and  exasperation 
of  Religious  Animosities.     Property  of  that  pecu- 


65 


liar  description  which  locally  influences  the  re- 
turn of  Members  to  the  Commons  House  of  Par- 
liament in  so  many  parts  of  England,  will  be 
gradually  brought  up  by  Roman  Catholic  opulence 
under  Ecclesiastical  direction ;  and  in  places  where 
the  elective  body  is  more  numerous,  the  same 
Religious  control  will  be  practised  more  or  less 
covertly  in  this  country,  which  has  been  practised 
openly  in  Ireland,  where  Roman  Catholic  Priests 
have  harangued  their  voters  from  the  Altar,  and 
led  them  on  or  sent  them  forward  from  the  Chapel 
to  the  hustings. 

And  if  such  persons  become  the  Electors,  it 
is  easy  to  foretell  what  will  be  the  Parliamen- 
tary conduct  of  the  Elected.  For  who  can  doubt 
but  the  Candidate  who  shall  in  any  material  de- 
gree owe  his  success  to  Roman  Catholic  consti- 
tuents, will  become  an  instrument  of  Political 
Power  in  their  hands ;  and  ever  ready  to  co- 
operate in  a  compact  body  with  others  of  like 
principles,  in  every  balanced  contest  of  parties, 
will  throw  his  whole  weight  on  that  side  which 
shall  pledge  itself  to  promote  most  effectually, 
their  distinct,  ulterior,  and  invariable  object  of 
Roman  Catholic  aggrandizement. 

Now  My  Lords,  if  such  are  the  probable  or 
even  the  possible  mischiefs  of  the  measure,  what 
is  the  motive  or  principle  which  should  induce  us 
to  encounter  the  risk  ?  The  Principle  of  these 
Bills,  so  far  as  it  may  be  collected  from  the 
preamble  of  one  of  these    Bills,   and   from  the 

F 


66 


speech  of  the  Noble  Marquess  on  both,  is,  to 
equalize  or  assimilate  the  political  condition  of  the 
English  Roman  Catholics  with  that  of  the  Irish, 
and  render  it  alike  in  both  countries. 

My  Lords,  to  equalize  is  well,  when  it  breaks 
not  in  upon  higher  principles  ;  and  you  may 
safely  and  usefully  equalize  or  assimilate  your 
forms  and  resfulations  of  finance  and  commerce  ; 
although  what  may  be  fit  in  Ireland  is  not  there- 
fore necessarily  fit  in  England,  where  the  very 
same  measures  may  produce  very  different  effects, 
when  called  into  operation,  under  very  different 
circumstances.  But,  My  Lords,  surrender  not  in 
this  age  of  theoretic  perfection,  and  for  the  sake 
of  ideal  analogies,  surrender  not  to  the  profes- 
sors of  a  Hostile  Religion,  the  only  sure  and  prac- 
tical means  of  protecting  your  own. 

And,  after  all,  you  cannot  place  Great  Bri- 
tain as  to  the  Elective  Franchise,  upon  the  same 
footing  with  Ireland.  To  make  even  England 
like  Ireland  in  this  respect,  you  must  begin  by 
making  England  unlike  Scotland,  and  destroy 
the  uniformity  which  now  prevails  upon  this  point 
in  both  parts  of  the  same  Island  ;  for  Scotland 
in  her  union  with  England,  stipulated  that  her 
Electors  and  Elected  should  be  Protestants,  as 
yours  then  were ;  and  now  you  propose  to  leave 
her  irrevocably  bound,  and  to  release  yourselves 
from  your  own  implied  part  of  the  same  con- 
tract. 

As  to  making  the  Elective  Franchise  in  Eng- 


67 


land  resemble  that  of  Ireland,  surely  there  is 
nothing  in  the  present  exercise  of  the  Elective 
Franchise  there,  which  can  be  an  object  of  imita- 
tion !  and  it  were  rather  to  be  desired  that  some 
reform  were  made  in  the  Elective  Franchise  of 
Ireland  itself,  such  as  the  Noble  Marquess  him- 
self suggested  in  a  luminous  and  able  speech 
upon  the  state  of  Ireland,  in  a  former  Session 
of  Parliament,  when  he  openly  and  fairly  avowed 
his  opinion,  that  such  a  reform  was  indispensa- 
bly necessary  to  the  tranquillity  and  happiness 
of  that  country. 

In  order  to  cover  and  justify  the  whole  of 
the  measures  now  recommended  to  us,  we  are 
told,  in  the  last  place,  that  if  we  should  accede 
to  those  propositions,  there  would  be  no  mis- 
chief to  apprehend,  no  danger  to  fear,  no  just 
ground  of  alarm ;  because  the  Numbers  of  Ro- 
man Catholics  to  whom  the  operation  of  these 
Bills  would  extend  are  so  few. 

But  whether  they  be  more  or  less  numerous, 
(and  there  are,  amongst  the  Right  Reverend 
Prelates  now  present,  those  who  know  them  to 
have  increased  rapidly  in  number,  and  still  more 
in  activity,)  yet  any  assumed  amount  or  proportion 
of  their  present  numbers  is  a  very  shifting  ground 
for  a  Statesman  to  stand  upon,  and  wholly  unfit 
for  durable  Legislation.  The  few  of  to-day  may 
become  the  many  to-morrow  ;  and  in  no  instance 
more  probably  than  where  talents,   activity  and 

f2 


68 


69 


persuasion  of  all  sorts,  arc  set  to  work  by  one 
constant  and  mighty  impulse. 

My  Lords,  to  deal  fairly  by  the  House,  I  pro- 
fess, that  my  fears  are  less  of  the  present  or  future 
Numbers  of  the  Roman  Catholics,  than  of  the 
known  and  fixed  Principles  and  Spirit  of  the  Ro- 
man Catholic  Church ;  and  I  hope  I  may  speak 
without  personal  offence  to  any  men,  when  I  say 
that  1  fear  them,  because  I  respect  their  since- 
rity. 

The  Principles  of  the  Church  and  Court  of 
Rome  are  unchangeable;  the  same  yesterday, 
to-day,  and  for  ever;  and  I  ask  of  your  Lord- 
ships to  take  no  long  retrospect,  but  to  look 
around  you  in  your  own  times,  and  the  com- 
pass of  the  last  fifteen  years  may  suffice  to  show 
you  abundant  proofs  of  the  existing  strength  and 
operation  of  those  principles. 

Look,  My  Lords,  to  the  public  Letters  and 
Briefs  of  the  last  Pontiff,*  upon  the  invasion  of 
his  territory  by  the  French,  in  the  years  1808 

•  Principles  professed  by  the  Holy  See  from  1808  to  1820, 
extracted  from  the  Circular  Letters  and  Briefs  of  Pope  Pius 
VII.  Chiaramonte  : — 

1.  That  the  Pope  is  the  Vicegerent  of  God,  who  disposes 
of  thrones,  and  is  the  Sovereign  of  Sovereigns— Le^/pr  ad- 
dressed to  the  Foreign  Ministers  resident  at  Roine,  and  signed 
Cardinal  Pacca,  Nov.  30,  1808. 

2.  That  any  State  declaring  itself  independent  of  the  church 
is  in  a  state  of  Schism. — Ibid. 

3.  That  the  dependence  of  the  Episcopal  order  on  the   See 


•r 


''  ♦ 


and  1809;  remember  the  Memorials  distributed 
throughout  England  by  a  Vicar  Apostolic  and 
Roman  Catholic  Bishop  of  the  midland  district, 

of  Rome  is  necessary  to  the  unity  of  the  Church. — Circidar 
Letter,  Feb.  5,  1808. 

4.  That  no  Lay  authority  can  translate  from  one  Bishopric 
to  another. — Circular  Letter  from  Savona,  Dec.  2,  1810. 

5.  That  there  is  no  hope  of  salvation  out  of  the  Church  of 
Rome. — Listructions  to  the  subjects  of  the  Hohj  See,  signed 
Gabrielli,  May  22,  1808. 

6.  Protest  by  the  Holy  See  against  the  public  Toleration  of 
other  modes  of  Worship. — Instructions,  t^c.  ut  supra,  and  Cir- 
cidar  Letter  to  all  the  Cardinals,  f^c,  Feb.  5,  1808. 

7.  Power  of  the  Pope  to  regulate  Oaths  of  Allegiance,  and 
to  determine  how  far  they  may  be  taken  passively  or  actively, 
provided  they  are  never  to  be  prejudicial  to  the  Church. — 
Instructions,  ut  supra,  and  Letter  addressed  to  the  Cardinals 
of  tJie  Papal  territory,  Aug.  30    1809. 

8.  His  condemnation  of  all  Marriages  with  Heretics  as  mat- 
ter of  detestation  and  abhorrence. — Circular  Letter  to  the  Car- 
dinals, Archbishops,  Bishops,  and  Capitular  Vicars  of  France, 
dated  Rome,  Feb.  27,  1809. 

9.  Power  delegated  to  Archbishops  and  Bishops  of  France 
to  grant  Absolution,  Indulgences,  and  give  Dispensations  or 
Marriage-licences  in  cases  of  Incest,  or  of  Adultery,  provided 
neither  party  has  been  instrumental  in  the  death  of  the  deceased 
im^h^.ndi.-'huiulgemes,  Feb.  27,  1809,  signed  Cardinal  Michel  di 
Pietro. 

10.  Obligation  to  preserve  and  promote  the  establishment 
of  Religious  Orders,  and  tlieir  actual  restoration.— C/Vc/f/«r  Let- 
ter to  the  Cardinals,  Feb.  5,  1808,  atid  Papal  Bull,  Rome,  Aug. 
15,  1814.  Special  Restoration  of  the  Jesuits,  in  Russia,  Brief, 
March  7, 1801.— In  Sicily,  Jm/j/ 30, 1804.— General  Restoration, 
Aug.  7,  1814.— Conditionally  in  England.  See  Letter  of  Car- 
dinal Consalvi,  April  18,  1820. 


70 

Dr.  Milner,  in  1813;*  read  the  publications  of 
a  Roman  Catholic  Bishop  of  Kildare,  Dr.  Doyle, 
recently  dispersed  throughout  Ireland;!  and  more 
especially  that  extraordinary  manifesto  of  sedi- 
tion and  insolence,  published  under  the  same 
name,  within  the  course  of  the  last  week,  in  the 
daily  prints  of  this  metropolis  ;  J  all  breathing  the 

•  Extract  from  Dr.  Milner  s  Brief  Meinorial  on  the  Roman 
Catholic  Bill  May  21,  1813.  "  As  many  Catholics  in  England 
have  refased  to  take  the  oath  appointed  for  them  by  the  Act  of 
1791,  in  consequence  of  the  terms  in  which  the  Succession  clause 
is  couched,  from  an  idea  that  they  themselves  would  be  obliged 
to  take  up  arms  against  the  Sovereign  in  case  he  were  to  profess 
their  religion,  which  nobody  can  believe  they  would  do  j  the 
following  change  in  the  terms  is  humbly  proposed,  NOT  ^  to 
defend  to  the  utmost  of  my  power,'  BUT  *  to  submit  myself.'  " 

f  "  What  fills,  at  the  present  day,  these  Islands  and  Germany 
with  the  most  frantic  opinions,  but  the  want  of  authority  sufficient 
to  COERCE  them." — Dr.  Doyle's  Vindication  of  the  Civil  and 
Religious  Principles  of  the  Irish  Catholics,  <^c.  Dublin,  1823. 
This  is  in  the  same  spirit  as  the  Tractatns  de  Ecclesid  Christi. 
Published  by  Dr.  Delahogue,  for  the  Text-Book  of  Maynooth, 
Dublin,  1815.  "  Ecclesia  suam  retinet  Jurisdictionem  in  omnes 
Apostatas,  Hcereticos,  et  Schismaticos :  qnamvis  ad  illiiis  corpus 
non  pertinent,  quemadmodum  Dux  militiae  jus  habet  severiores 
poenas  decernendi  adversus  militem  transfugam  qui  ex  albo  militiae 
fuisset  erasus."     p.  404. 

I  "  The  whole  body  of  the  Catholics  are  impatient ;  their  pride 
and  interests  are  wounded ;  disaffection  must  be  working  in  them, 
if  they  be  men  born  and  nurtured  in  a  free  state ;  and  yet  en- 
slaved."— "  The  Ministers  of  the  Establishment,  as  it  exists  at 
present,  are  and  will  b€  detested  by  those  who  differ  from  them 
in  Religion  ;  and  the  more  their  residence  is  enforced,  and  their 
numbers  multiplied,  the  more  odious  they  will  become." — "  The 
Minister  of  England  cannot  look  to  the  exertions  of  the  Catholic 


71 


•  ■*. 


I 


1 


same  unabated  spirit  of  hostility  against  all  who 
belong  not  to  their  own  rule  of  faith. 

On  the  Continent  also,  the  same  spirit  has  been 
stirring  within  these  few  months.  Such  have  been 
the  machinations  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Clergy 
in  the  Netherlands,  and  their  endeavours  to  set 
up  a  Foreign  Supremacy  in  derogation  of  their  lo- 
cal Allegiance,  that  two  of  their  Societies,  at 
Brussels  and  Utrecht,  have  been  put  down  by 
royal  edict,  as  dangerous  to  the  public  peace: 
and  even  in  Roman  Catholic  France,  since  the 
accession  of  the  present  Pontiff,  a  pastoral  letter 
of  the  Cardinal  Archbishop  of  Toulouse  has  been 
issued  from  Rome,  with  the  declared  approba- 
tion of  the  Holy  See,*  which  the  king  of  France, 
by  his  Council  of  State,  has  deemed  it  his  duty  to 
suppress,  for  asserting  Claims,  Doctrines,  and 
Pretensions,  subversive  of  the  rights  and  inde- 
pendence of  his  Throne. 

My  Lords,  admonished  by  these  proofs,  which 


Priesthood;  they  have  been  ill-treated."— "If  a  rebellion  were 
raging  from  Carrickfergus  to  Cape  Clear,  no  sentence  of  Excom- 
munication would  ever  be  fulminated  by  a  Catholic  prelate/' — 
"  The  Catholics  possessed  of  properly,  in  Ireland,  either  cannot 
or  will  not  render  any  efficient  services  to  Government,  if  event- 
ful times  arrive." — "  From  such  men,  the  Government,  should  it 
persist    in  its  present  course,    has   only   to   expect  defiance  or 

open  hostility."     Letter  to Robertson,  Esq,   M.P.  dated 

Car  low.  May  13,    1824,  signed  James  Doyle, 

*  Lettre  Pastorale  de  S.  E.  Mons.  Le   Cardinal  Archeveque 
de  Toulouse  et  Narbonne,  t^c.  Rome,  /e  15  Oct.  1823. 


/ 


72 

rise  up  around  us  on  all  sides^  and  by  these 
warnings  of  the  ever  intolerant  and  encroaching 
spirit  of  the  Church  of  Rome,  I  am  persuaded 
that  we  shall  best  discharge  our  duty,  by  perse- 
vering upon  this  as  upon  former  occasions,  in  the 
same  steady  and  firm  refusal  to  lessen  or  weaken 
the  Defences  of  our  Protestant  Constitution.  That 
we  have  not  been  called  upon  this  year  by  many 
petitions  to  withstand  these  claims,  is  perfectly 
true,  but  this  silence  may  be  justly  ascribed  to 
the  conviction  entertained  by  the  country  at  large, 
that  they  may  securely  rely  upon  the  unalterable 
adherence  of  this  House,  to  its  former  decisions  ; 
and  in  that  confidence  I  hope  they  will  not  this 
day  be  disappointed. 

I  shall  therefore  have  the  honour  to  propose  an 
amendment  to  the  Motion  of  the  Noble  Marquess, 
by  moving, — That  these  Bills  be  read  a  second 
time,  not  7ioil\  but  on  this  day  six  months. 

After  Debate,  upon  the  Question  put — "  That  this  Bill  be  now 
read  a  second  time/' — the  House  divided ; 

Contents  63.— Proxies  38.— Total  101. 
Not  Contents  74.       65.     139. 


Majority  against  the  Bill      38. 


And  upon  the  like  Question  as  to  the  other  Bill : — 
Contents  67.— Proxies  42.— Total  109. 
Not  Contents  76.       67. 143. 


Majority  against  the  Bill      34. 


73 


V. 


On  May  17,  1825. — Upon  the  Motion  made  in  the  House  of 
Lords,  by  the  Earl  of  Donoughmore,  for  the  Second  Reading  of 
the  Bill  "  To  provide  for  the  removal  of  tlie  Disqualifications 
under  which  His  Majesty's  Roman  Catholic  subjects  now  la- 
bour,"  The  Lord  Colchester  rose,  and  spoke  as  follows  : — 


My  Lords, 
My  view  of  this  important  Measure  is  so  dif- 
ferent from  that  of  the  Noble  Earl  who  has 
opened  this  debate,  that,  although  he  has  ab- 
stained from  offering  any  arguments  in  support 
of  his  Motion,  I  am,  nevertheless,  desirous  of 
taking  the  earliest  opportunity  of  stating  the  par- 
ticular grounds  of  my  opposition  to  it. 

It  is  true,  that  the  circumstances  under  which 
we  have  to  enter  upon  this  discussion  are,  in 
some  degree,  novel ;  but  the  original  ground  and 
character  of  the  Measure  itself  remain  unal- 
tered. 

Of  those  occurrences  which  are  new,  the  first 
and  most  prominent  has  been  the  systematic 
intimidation  with  which  the  Roman  Catholic  de- 
mands were  prepared  in  Ireland  before  the  com- 
mencement of  the  present  Session  by  the  Roman 
Catholic  Association  in  Dublin;  but  that  manu- 
factory of  sedition  and  possible  insurrection  has 


74 


75 


been  put  down  by  the  wisdom  and  firmness  of  Par- 
liament. Another  new  occurrence  is,  the  extra- 
ordinary tranquillity  which  at  present  pervades 
the  whole  of  Ireland ;  but  this  very  tranquillity 
is  not  less  alarming  than  the  disturbances  which 
preceded  it,  if  it  should  appear,  that  both  have 
been  produced  and  maintained  alike  by  an  au- 
thority which  the  State  does  not  acknowledge, 
and  over  which  it  has  no  control.  And  another 
new  occurrence  is,  the  Parliamentary  Inquiry  i'l 
which  both  Houses  have  been  so  deeply  engaged 
respecting  the  general  state  of  Ireland  and  its 
grievances ;  but  the  result  of  that  inquiry,  so  far 
as  it  has  proceeded,  however  important  and  be- 
neficial in  many  points  of  view,  has  by  no  means 
removed  the  fundamental  objections  to  the  pre- 
sent measure ;  and  the  flood  of  Petitions  which 
has  poured  in  upon  us,  plainly  proves  that  such  a 
measure  is  adverse  to  the  general  feelings  of  the 
nation. 

Throughout  the  last  twenty  years,  we,  who  are 
opposed  to  the  Roman  Catholic  Claims,  have 
nevertheless,  shown  at  the  same  time  a  perfect 
readiness  to  admit  our  Roman  Catholic  fellow- 
subjects  to  a  full  participation  in  all  the  Employ- 
ments, Emoluments  and  Honours  of  our  common 
country,  short  of  Political  Power ;  but  that  Con- 
cession we  have  always  resisted  :  and  after  all 
we  have  yet  heard,  and  all  that  we  have  yet 
seen,  I  say  that  we  must  resist  it  again  to-day ; 
and  here  make  our  determined  stand. 


.4. 


I 


I 


To  demonstrate  this  necessity,  it  will  be  suffi- 
cient for  us  to  consider, — What  is  the  present 
Position  which  the  Roman  Catholics  occupy  ; — 
What  are  the  further  Privileges  which  they  de- 
mand ; — What  are  the  Dangers  which  must  result 
from  conceding  those  demands; — And  what  are 
the  Means  which  such  concessions  would  place  in 
their  hands  for  the  destruction  of  our  Protestant 
Constitution  in  Church  and  State. 

In  their  present  Position,  the  Roman  Catholics 
have  the  full  protection  of  the  law  for  the  free 
and  unrestricted  exercise  of  their  Religion  ;  and  if 
they  require  more  complete  protection,  as  has 
been  surmised,  they  have  only  to  point  out  the 
defect,  and  Parliament  has  shown  no  unwilling- 
ness to  afford  such  redress.* 

In  the  possession  of  Property,  they  are  as 
free  and  secure  as  any  other  subjects  of  the  Bri- 
tish Empire,  notwithstanding  all  their  tragic  de- 
clamations against  penal  laws  respecting  property, 
which  have  been  repealed  for  more  than  half  a 
century  :  or  again:  if  it  can  be  shown  that  they 
are  not  so  secure  as  the  ends  of  Justice  require, 
with  regard  to  the  registering  of  Oaths,  or  any 
such  requisites,  they  ought  to  be  made  secure, 
and  have  their  titles  quieted. f 

*  See  O'ConneWs  Evidence  before  Committee  of  House  of  Com- 
mom,  1825,  p.  112. — For  extending  the  English  Act  respecting 
Places  of  Worship,  (31  Geo.  3.)  to  Ireland. 

-j-  See  as  to  Marriage  Laws,  O'ConnelVs  Evidence,  ut  supra, 
p.  113,  and  as  to  Registration  of  Oaths,  ibid,  p.  109 — 111. 


76 

As  to  Civil  Employments,  they  have  aheady 
free  admission  into  all  the  various  departments  of 
the  Revenue ;  and  at  the  Bar,  there  is  no  impe- 
diment whatever  to  prevent  their  obtaining,  by 
patent,  that  Precedency  of  rank  to  which  their 
relative  pretensions  may  entitle  them,  for  their 
own  emolument,  the  convenience  of  their  compe- 
titors, or  the  benefit  of  their  clients. 

The  Army  and  Navy  have  been  long  since 
thrown  open  to  them,  with  the  whole  career  of 
military  service  and  honours. 

But  what  they  ask  now,  and  ask  of  your  Lord- 
ships this  day,  is  to  open  for  them  a  broad  and 
direct  path  to  Political  Power ;  first,  by  admis- 
sion to  the  two  Houses  of  Parliament ;  secondly, 
to  all  the  high  Judicial  Offices,  the  highest  alone 
excepted  ;  and  thirdly,  to  the  Privy  Council  of 
the  Sovereign,  which  in  other  terms  designates  all 
the  ruling  powers  of  the  State  at  home  and 
abroad  ;  the  whole  domestic  government,  the  Lord 
Lieutenancy  of  Ireland  alone  accepted;  and  all 
the  Governments  whatever  throughout  all  the  fo- 
reign possessions  of  the  Empire :  And  to  all  these 
high  Offices  and  Privileges,  they  demand  of  us  at 
once  by  this  Bill,  without  any  of  the  pretended 
Securities  contained  in  their  former  Bills,  an 
entire,  complete,*  and  unconditional,  admission. 
Truly  My  Lords  we  may  say  of  those  who  ap- 
proach us, 

"  Hi  ad  710S  gladiatorio  aninio  affecUuit  viamS'' 


77 

Against  these  pretensions,  they  challenge  us 
to  show  what  are  the  Dangers  of  such  concessions, 
and  how  the  existence  of  any  such  danger  can 
be  established  by  proof.  We  answer  that  the  Dan- 
ger is  manifest,  and  the  Proofs  abundant,  and  the 
amount  of  the  danger  in  no  degree  abated  by  any 

of  the  Projects    hitherto   devised  for  that   pur- 
pose. 

The  Danger  is  itself  nothing  less  than  what 
their  own  leaders  proclaim ;  it  is  the  plain  drift 
and  end  of  all  their  language  and  endeavours ;  and 
if  they  do  not  so  intend,  they  would  not  be  zeal- 
ous and  sincere  Roman  Catholics ;  namely,  to  begin 
with  the  destruction  of  our  Church  Property  and 
its  Endowed  Establishment.  Equality  of  rights 
they  cry,  but  their  ultimate  object  and  end  is,  and 
ever  was.  Domination.*  And  nothing  less  can  result 
in  the  present  case,  whatever  they  may  profess 
to  begin  with,  than  the  gradual  re-establishment 

*  See  the  Creed  of  P.  Pins  IV.  acknowledging  the  standard 
Rule  of  Faith,  (Dr.  Doyle's  Evidence  before  the  Lords,  p.  394.) 
which  concludes  thus :  "  Hanc  veram  Catholicam  Fidem,  extra 
quam  Nemo  salvus  esse  potest,  &c,  a  meis  Subditis,  vel  illis  quo- 
rum cum  ad  me  in  meo  munere  spectabit  teneri,  doceri  et  praedicari, 
quantum  in  me  erit  curaturum.  Ego  idem  spondeo,  voveo,  ac 
juro." — See  also  BossueVs  advice  to  James  II.  22  31ay  1693,  that 
he  should  agree  to  the  Declarations  which  his  Protestant  subjects 
required  of  him  when  at  St.  Germain's,  as  a  preliminary  for  his  re- 
call to  the  Throne  of  England, — however^objectionable  to  his  Ro- 
man Catholic  subjects  those  Declarations  might  be  in  other  respects, 
yet  expedient  as  tending  to  facilitate  the  ultimate  accomplish- 


78 

of  their  own  Church  in  Ireland  ;  practically  des- 
troying that  fundamental  Article  of  the  Union, 
which  has  established  one  Protestant  Episcopal 
Church  for  England  and  Ireland  ;  and  finally  dis- 
solving in  both  countries  the  whole  connexion  of  a 
Protestant  Church  and  State,  which  forms  an 
essential  principle  of  the  British  Constitu- 
tion. 

The  Proofs  of  this  spirit  are  abundant.  Other 
persons  more  learned  may  draw  them  from 
other  times  ;^  but  I  shall  be  content  to  take 
those  chiefly  of  a  later  date,  and  such  as  are 
open  to  the  observation  of  us  all.  Proofs  of 
Roman  Catholic  Hostility  to  our  Established 
Church  and  its  Clergy,  of  their  imperfect  Alle- 
giance to  the  State,  and  of  their  Intolerance  to 
all,  even  to  those  who  now  blindly  concur  in 
supporting  them. 

Mark  the  language  of  their  Leaders,  Ecclesias- 
tical and  Political.    The  boldest  and  most  promi- 

ment  of  their  hopes  :  *'  ce  qui  leur  pent  f aire  vraisemhlablement  es- 
perer,  sinon  d'abord,  dumoins  dans  la  suite,  Ventier  retablisse- 
metit  de  VEgllse  et  de  la  Foy'' — See  Oeiwres  de  Bossuet,  vol. 
43,  8vo.  edit,  Versailles,  1819. — And  Memoirs  of  the  Life  of 
James  £1.  published  from  the  Original  Manuscript,  by  Dr.  Clarke, 
vol.  ii.  p.  509. 

*  Upon  Papal  Supremacy — See  Letters  of  Br.  Phillpotts  Dean 
of  Chester,  published  1 825,  upon  the  Answers  of  the  Six  Universi- 
ties to  Mr.  Pitt's  Question. — Blanco  Whitens  Letters  on  Catholi- 
cism, Letter  If.  published  1825. — Burnett's  Evidence  before  the 
Lords.  1825,  p  309  ;  and  Pjielans  Evidence,  ibid.  p.  924. 


79 

nent  of  their  Churchmen,  whose  learning,  talents 
and  views  are  all  equally  remarkable,  I  mean 
Dr.  Doyle,  the  titular  Bishop  of  Kildare,  in  a 
publication  addressed  last  year  to  the  Lord  Lieu- 
tenant of  Ireland,  and  adopted  by  the  Leaders  of 
the  late  Roman  Catholic  Association  as  the  full 
Vindication  and  true  statement  of  their  princi- 
ples, expressly  denies  the  justice  of  those  Laws 
by  which  the  Established  Church  of  Ireland  holds 
its  property,*  an  opinion  which  he  has  again 
maintained  in  his  Evidence  on  oath  :  all  this,  if  not 
to  be  blamed  in  him,  is  not  very  encouraging 
to  us. 

In  the  same  spirit,  the  same  Ecclesiastical  au- 
thority, and  adopted  again  by  the  same  Roman 
Catholic  Association,  in  a  publication,  dated  Car- 
low,  13th  May  last  year,  expressly  declares,  that 
the  "  Ministers  of  the  establishment  as  it  exists 
at  present,  are  and  will  be  detested  by  those  who 
differ  from  them  in  religion."  See,  my  Lords, 
how  long  this  detestation  is  to  endure;  and  he 
adds,  "  the  more  their  residence  is  enforced  and 
their  numbers  multiplied,  the  more  odious  they 
will  become. "-i" 

*  See  "  Vindication"  &c.  p.  38.  ^'  Proceedings  of  Irish 
Roman  Catholic  Association,"  8vo.  p.  63 — 69  ;  and  Dr,  Doyle's 
Evidence  before  the  Commons,  p.  216 ;  and  before  the  Lords, 
p.  376. 

f  See  Letter  to Robertson,   Esq.  M.  P.  signed  James 

Doyle,  dated  Carlo w,  13th  May,  1824.  See  also.  Proceedings 
of  Irish  Roman  Catholic  Association,  p.  345,  and  393. 


I\  i 


80 

So  much  for  their  disclaimer  of  Hostility  to  the 
Established  Church  and  its  Clergy. 

Upon  the  question  of  Allegiance, — and  let  it 
always  be  remembered  that  this  Bill  extends 
equally  to  Great  Britain  and  Ireland, — observe 
first,  That  the  King's  Protestant  Subject  swears, 
that  he  will  disclose  all  traitorous  conspiracies 
whatever,  which  shall  come  to  his  knowledge  ; 
the  Roman  Catholic  Priest  excepts  out  of  that 
disclosure  all  that  knowledge,  probably  the  most 
important  to  the  State,  which  comes  to  him  by 
Confession;*  and  the  Roman  Catholic  Bishop 
takes  an  express  oath  that  he  will  not  disclose 
the  counsels  of  his  Foreign  Sovereign  to  any 
man;  "  Consilium  Domini  Papse  nemini  pan- 
dam  ;"-j-  showing  the  plain  traces  of  a  Foreign 
jurisdiction  in  Spirituals  producing  Temporal  ef- 
fects. 

In  the  next  place,  consider  well  how  the 
English  Roman  Catholics  deal  with  the  Oath 
of  Abjuration,  and  how  the  Irish  treat  it,  as  to 
the  Protestant  Succession.  Doctor  Milner,  Vicar 
Apostolic  of  the  Holy  See,  for  the  midland  dis- 
trict of  England,  in  the  year  1813,    put  forth  a 

*  That  the  Pontifical  Oath  and  the  Secrecy  to  be  observed 
upon  Auricular  Confessions  are  inconsistent  with  the  Oath  of  Al- 
legiance, see  Archbishop  Magee*s  Evidence  before  the  Lords, 
p.  688 — 694.  And  how  far  they  atlect  the  administration  of  Jus- 
tice, see  0' Sullivan's  Evidence^  ibid,  p.  929,  930.  Dr,  Doyle's, 
ibid.  395—499. 

t  See  the  Bishop's  Oath,  Lords  Report,  412,  and  Priest's  Oath, 
ibid.  913. 


81 

publication  against  the  Oath  proposed  by  the 
Bill  of  that  date,  and  asserted,  that  **  no  consci- 
entious Roman  Catholic  could  swear  to  do  more 
than  submit  to  the  Protestant  Succession  of  the 
crown,  but  could  7iot  swear  to  maintain,  support,  and 
defend  it:'  Doctor  Doyle,  the  organ  of  the  Ro- 
man Catholic  Church  in  Ireland,  and  the  adopted 
Champion  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Laity,  denies 
this  distinction,  and  pledges  himself  and  his 
Church  to  an  active  allegiance.  Are  we  then 
to  have  one  Oath  of  allegiance  for  Ireland,  and 
another  for  England?  Or  rather,  to  measure  them 
in  both  cases,  by  the  rule  laid  down  long  ago, 
and  again  by  Pope  Pius  VII.  so  late  as  1809, 
**  that  no  Oaths  are  binding  in  such  cases,  if 
taken  to  the  prejudice  of  the  Church  and  Religion." 
But  Doctor  Doyle  does  not  leave  us  finally  in 
doubt ;  for  in  the  same  publication,  from  Carlow, 
approved  by  the  same  Roman  Catholic  Associa- 
tion, he  puts  the  supposed  case  of  a  Rebellion  in 
Ireland;  which  we  find  by  his  evidence  is  a  just 
cause  for  Excommunication;*  and  yet  he  tells 
us,  that  ''  if  a  Rebellion  were  raging  from  Car-  ^, 
rickfergus  to  Cape  Clear,  no  Sentence  of  Ex- ' 
communication  would  ever  be  fulminated  by  a 
Roman  Catholic  Prelate." 

So  much  for  the  perfect  Allegiance,  and  the 
active  Loyalty  of  the  Roman  Catholic  church  to 
a  Protestant  government,  for  conscience  sake. 

*  See  Dr.  Doyles's  Evidence  before  the  Lords,  p.  506. 

G 


82 


And  as  to  the  unalterable  spirit  of  Intolerance 
of  the  Roman  Catholic  Church  towards  all 
others;  the  highest  authority  in  that  Church,  and 
acknowledged  by  them  to  be  such  at  this  day,  * 
Bossuet,  the  celebrated  Bishop  of  Meaux,  has  de- 
clared, that  *'  The  Church  of  Rome  is  the  most 
Intolerant  of  all  Christian  sects.  It  is  her  holy 
and  Inflexible  Incompatibility  which  renders  her 
severe,  unconciliatory,  and  odious  to  all  sects 
separated  from  her.  They  desire  to  be  tolerated 
by  her;  but  her  holy  severity  forbids  such  in- 
dulgence. The  exercise  of  the  Power  of  the 
Sword,  in  matters  of  Religion  and  Conscience, 
is  not  to  be  questioned."  t  What  that  Sword 
means,  is  exemplified  in  the  famous  Revocation  of 
the  Edict  of  Nantes ;  and  his  illustration  of  it 
may  be  read  amongst  those  splendid  models  of 
modern  eloquence,  in  one  of  his  Oi^aisons  Fu- 
n^breSy  where  he  praises  Louis  XIV.  for  his 
piety  in  commanding  that  persecution,  and  praises 
upon  the  same  score  also  the  Chancellor  of 
France,  Le  Tellier,  by  whom  that  Ordinance 
was  sealed  and  carried  into  full  effect,  for  the 
extermination  of  heretics. 

In  the  same  never-changing  spirit,  the  late 
Pope,  so  recently  as  1808,  proclaimed  to  all 
Europe,  that  the  See  of  Rome  refused  Toleration 

•  See  Dr.  Murray's  Evidence  before  the  Lords,  p.  429. 

-j-  See  Bossuet  Hist,  des  Variations  Sixieme  Avertissement, 
and  Livre  X.  And  his  Oraison  Funebre  on  The  Chancellor  Le 
Tellier. 


83 

to  other  modes  of  worship ;  the  Belgian  Bishops 
remonstrated  against  all  Toleration  in  1815;* 
the  same  spirit  also  has  restored  the  Order  of 
Jesuits,  and  re-established  the  Inquisition;  and 
the  present  aspect  of  Religious  Affairs  in  France 
cannot  but  increase  our  alarms. 

So  much  for  the  unchanged,  and  unchangeable 
Intolerance  of  the  Church  of  Rome,  wherever 
she  can  extend  her  Empire. 

My  Lords,  to  obviate  and  reduce  the  amount 
of  these  Dangers,  I  am  well  aware  that  several 
collateral  Arrangements  have  been  proposed; 
and  with  respect  to  Ireland,  a  Project  for  what 
is  called  a  State  Provision  for  the  Roman  Ca- 
tholic Clergy,  which  it  is  suggested  may  help  to 
disconnect  the  Roman  Catholic  Clergy  from  their 
flocks,  endowing  each  parish  and  diocese  with 
some  fixed  stipend  for  the  Incumbent;  a  sort 
of  Regium  Donum,  settled  by  law,  in  considera- 
tion of  which,  we  are  to  incorporate  the  Roman 
Catholic  Laity  with  ourselves,  and  render  them 
our  harmless  Associates  in  the  ruling  Powers  of  a 
Protestant  State. 

To-day  is  not  the  time  for  arguing  the  details 
of  such  a  question;  no  such  Bill  has  yet 
reached  us ;  nor  does  it  appear  that  any  Minis- 
ter of  the  Crown  has  declared  himself  to  have 
received  the  King's  commands  to  recommend 
any   Grant  for   such   a   purpose.      But  as   this 

*  See  Remonstrance  of  the  Belgian  Bis/wps  to  the  King  of 
the  Netherlands,  28  July  1815. 

g2 


84 


possible  project  has  been  used  as  an  auxiliary  ar- 
gument for  supporting  Roman  Catholic  Emanci- 
pation, as  it  is  called,  I  must  take  leave  to  say 
thus  much  upon  it. 

I  object  to  it  per  se,  as  erecting  an  Endowed 
and  Perpetual  Roman  Catholic  church  within 
this  Realm;  a  thing  unheard  of  since  the  days  of 
the  Reformation. 

And  I  object  to  it,  that  it  will  increase  the 
power  of  the  Hierarchy,  and  also  the  mischievous 
influence  of  the  Priests  over  their  flocks  ;  for  they 
are  to  have  the  money  of  the  State  given  to  them 
in  one  hand,  and  with  the  other  they  are  to  take 
also  from  their  flock  a  portion  of  their  present 
fees,  which  fees,  their  Clergy  tell  you,  they  would 
not  give  up ;  and  which  they  tell  you,  moreover, 
*'  it  is  incompetent  to  your  Legislature  to  pro- 
hibit them  from  taking."  * 

Another  collateral  measure,  is  the  Domestic 
Nomination  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Bishops, 
which  this  very  Bill  seeks  to  establish,  a  Nomina- 
tion by  their  Deans  and  Chapters;  for  though 
some  of  your  Lordships  may  not  be  apprized  of 
it,  they  have  the  ready-made  frame  of  an  estab- 
lished Roman  Catholic  church  in  Ireland,  in 
full  array  and  full  force  for  the  first  favourable 
opportunity  of  dispossessing  their  Protestant 
rivals.  Their  Bishops  are  to  be  named  by  their 
respective  Deans  and  Chapters;  unless,  indeed, 
the  Pope  should  choose  to  exercise  his  own  right 
of  appointment ;  for  the  highest  authority  amongst 

♦  See  Dr.  Doyle's  Evidence  before  the  Commons,  p.  180,  184. 


85 


them  allows,  that  the  Pope  may  appoint  them 
even  at  this  day,  and  may  even  appoint  an  Alien, 
if  he  so  please.  But  be  they  named  by  whom 
they  may,  they  are  to  be  nominated  at  all  events, 
without  allowing  to  the  King  of  this  country  any 
control,  direct  or  indirect,  in  their  appointment  ;* 
a  power,  more  or  less  enjoyed  by  every  other 
Non-Catholic  Sovereign  in  Europe.  Nor  will  they 
allow  to  the  King  of  this  Country,  even  with  the 
consent  of  the  Pope  himself,  that  very  control, 
which  the  same  Sovereign  does  exercise  as  King 
of  Hanover,  over  his  Roman  Catholic  subjects 
in  Germany. 

This  very  Bill  also  provides  a  Commissioner  or 
Commissioners  for  regulating  the  Intercourse  of 
His  Majesty's  subjects  with  the  See  of  Rome ; 
under  the  pretext  of  a  Security  against  the  exer- 
cise of  foreign  jurisdiction.  But  it  excludes  the 
King  from  having  any  control  whatever  by  the 
intervention  of  any  Protestant  Servant  of  the 
Crown,  over  the  publication  of  any  Papal  Bulls, 
Rescripts,  or  Pastoral  Letters ;  even  though,  like 
that  of  the  present  Pontiff",  published  by  the  Irish 
Roman  Catholic  Prelates  last  year,  they  should 
threaten  us  with  Foreign  Interference,  bidding  the 
King's  Roman  Catholic  subjects  take  courage, 
and  expect  the  aid  of  Temporal  princes. -f- 

Such,  My  Lords,  is  the  Conciliatory  disposition 

*  See  Dr.  Doyle's  Evidence  before  the  Lords,  p.  366. 
f  See  Encyclical  Letter  of  Leo  XII.  1824;  and  Dr.Murray\s 
Evidence  before  the  Lords,  p.  429. 


86 

of  the  Roman  Catholic  Church  in  Ireland ;  and 
such  are  the  boasted  means  by  which  all  jarring 
interests  are  to  be  reconciled,  and  all  the  danger 
of  their  hostility  is  to  be  neutralized. 

Now,  as  to  England  separately,  in  what  spirit 
the  same  ambitious  views  are  entertained  and 
acted  upon  at  this  day.  Your  Lordships  may  per- 
haps hear  from  some  of  the  Right  Reverend  Pre- 
lates now  present,  under  whose  immediate  obser- 
vation these  views  have  been  announced  in  lan- 
guage which  cannot  be  misunderstood.  And  all 
of  us  may  have  seen  the  same  in  the  mischievous 
publication  entitled.  An  Address  from  the  Roman 
Catholics  of  Ireland,  to  the  Roman  Catholics  of 
England,  now  circulating  through  the  heart  of 
this  country,  pointing  out  our  Abbeys,  Cathedrals, 
and  Churches,  as  the  possessions  which  once 
belonged  to  their  Roman  Catholic  Ancestors,  but 
wrongfully  wrested  from  them  by  those  who  de- 
parted from  the  ancient  faith,  and  bidding  them 
turn  their  eyes  to  Foreign  Arms  for  their  future 
/   deliverance.  * 

My  Lords,  add  to  these  reflections,  what  should 
never  be  forgotten,  that  the  Hierarchy  of  the 
Roman  Catholic  Church,  both  in  England  and  Ire- 
land, holds  an  alliance  of  no  mean  importance 
with  all  the  Monastic  Orders,  which  have  settled 
amongst  us  ;  a  worse  than  useless  burthen  upon 
the  impoverished  population  of  Ireland,  unless  we 

*  See  this  Address   at  length,   in   the  Evidence  before   the 
Lords,  p.  752. 


r 


.^i. 


87 

are  to  pension  them  also,  as  has  been  surmised. 
Each  of  these  Orders,  it  has  been  stated  in  evi- 
dence to  your  Lordships,  maintains  a  constant 
intercourse  with  its  own  separate  College  at 
Rome ;  and  besides  those  of  older  date  in  Ire- 
land, others  of  more  recent  arrival  are  now  spread- 
ing over  England.  And,  strange  to  say.  Institu- 
tions which  the  policy  of  Roman  Catholic  States 
excludes  as  noxious  even  in  Roman  Catholic 
countries, — and  mainly,  that  learned,  but  powerful 
and  dangerous  society,  the  Jesuits-^^.Te  now  suffered 
to  take  root  in  this  Realm,  and  hold  large  posses- 
sions and  ostentatious  Establishments  of  modern 
date,  without  law,  and  against  law.  It  has  been 
proposed,  indeed,  to  pass  Laws  which  may  allow 
such  Institutions  to  be  endowed  and  perpetuated, 
if  not  already  legal.  But  I  say,  my  Lords,  rather 
remove  them  all  out  of  the  land  ;  excepting  such 
only  as  may  afford  an  optional  and  free  place  of 
refuge  to  aged  and  helpless  women,  as  charitable 
homes  for  those  who  may  have  no  other.  * 

My  Lords,  I  have  now  stated  to  your  Lord- 
ships the  extent  of  Power  which  the  Roman 
Catholics  seek  to  obtain  by  this  Bill.  I  have 
stated  also  the  Danger  of  allowing  them  to  pos- 
sess that  power,  from  the  unchangeable  nature 
of  their  principles  in  hostility  to  the  Established 

*  See  Returns  of  Monastic  Establishments  in  Irelandy  by 
Roman  Catholic  Archbishops  for  the  Provinces  of  Armagh,  Dub- 
lin, Cashel  and  Tuam,  in  the  Appendix  to  the  Lords  Report  of 
Evidence  1825,  p.  975,  983. 


88 

Religion  of  this  kingdom;  and  that  the  mischiev- 
ous operation  of  such  principles  will,  in  no  de- 
gree^ be  counteracted  by  the  grant  of  a  perpetual 
endowment  of  their  Priesthood,  out  of  the  public 
purse^  or  by  any  other  of  their  collateral  Arrange- 
ments. 

But  it  remains  for  me  to  answer  those  who 
tell  us  that  our  fears  are  visionary ;  that  what- 
ever may  be  the  hostile  Disposition,  the  Means 
are  wanting  to  give  it  effect.  That  we  should 
imitate  the  policy  of  other  States,  which,  with 
perfect  safety  to  themselves,  allow  equal  Poli- 
tical Power  to  all  religious  denominations  of  their 
subjects  ;  and  that,  if  we  look  at  home,  no  Means 
exist  by  which  any  mischief  to  the  State  could 
be  accomplished ;  because  the  mere  Eligibility, 
the  Admissibility,  the  Capacity,  to  attain  Political 
Power,  will  not  give  them  the  Power  itself,  in  a 
country  like  ours,  where  the  Roman  Catholics  are 
so  far  outnumbered  by  their  Protestant  fellow- 
subjects,  both  in  and  out  of  Parliament.  This 
difference,  however,  between  the  Admissibility  to 
Political  Power,  and  the  Possession  of  it,  will  be 
found  at  last  to  be  but  a  shadowy  distinction, 
and  indeed  an  actual  fraud,  if  it  is  really  meant 
to  withhold  in  Practice,  what  it  professes  to  give 
in  Theory. 

Upon  each  of  these  points,  a  few  words  may 
suffice.  Let  us  come  closer  to  the  cases  stated, 
and  examine  how  such  measures  do,  or  must 
w^ork. 


Ill 


ii 


f 


X 


89 

With  respect  to  the  Policy  of  those  Nations 
which  comprise  a  mixed  population,  holding  differ- 
ent modes  of  Faith,  when  we  are  told  that  All  but 
ours,  or  that  Any,  have  under  like  circumstances 
imparted  equal  Civil  rights  and  privileges  to  every 
description  of  their  subjects,  I  answer,  that  there 
is  No  case  parallel  or  similar  to  our  own. 

Despotic  Sovereigns,  whether  Roman  Catholic 
or  Protestant,  can  displace  at  their  will  any 
Minister  of  the  Crown,  whose  views  or  mea- 
sures appear  to  be  inconsistent  with  the  funda- 
mental  institutions  of  their  empire;  and  they 
may  therefore,  upon  that  tenure,  safely  employ 
them  all  indifferently.  But  no  example  exists  in 
this  or  in  any  other  country,  of  this  equal  par- 
ticipation of  rights,  certainly  none  sanctioned  by 
any  length  of  historical  experience,  where  a  Popu- 
lar and  Representative  form  of  government  has 
been  established  like  ours,  in  which  (as  we  all 
know  to  have  happened  in  other  times  and  in 
other  reigns)  any  Individual  of  high  character 
and  distinguished  talepts,  sustained  by  popular 
favour,  may,  I  will  not  say,  ''  force,"  but  "  com- 
mand," for  himself  an  entrance  into  the  Councils 
of  his  Sovereign,  and  take  into  his  hands  the 
chief  direction  of  that  State. 

And  where  the  Ruling  Powers  of  the  State 
may  be  thus  aspired  to  by  all,  and  attained  to  by 
any,  it  is  vitally  important  to  the  Safety  of  such 
a  State,  that  none  should  be  admitted  to  the  pos- 
sibihty  of  wielding  such  Power,  whose  Principles 


/ 


90 

are  necessarily  and  essentially  hostile  to  those 
fundamental  Institutions' of  the  country,  which  it 
is  his  sacred  duty  to  uphold. 

As  to  the  Means  of  accomplishing  any  great 
internal  change  in  our  constitution,  in  a  country 
like  ours,  I  believe  it  will  be  found  that  the 
Capacity  of  exercising  political  power  will  soon 
acquire  also  the  Power  itself,  and  at  no  great 
distance  of  time,  if  steadily  pursued,  whatever 
be  the  present  disparity  of  Numbers ;  and  you 
should  not  count  for  nothing  even  the  interme- 
diate mischief  of  such  a  Conflict. 

If  a  Minister  should  arise,  not  even  himself  a 
Roman  Catholic,  but  one  who  favours  their  pre- 
tensions, or  who  stands  in  need  of  their  support, 
after  this  Bill  shall  have  passed,  the  road  is  short, 
so  far  as  concerns  the  Peerage;  and  a  simple 
Gazette  may,  as  it  has  done  for  other  purposes, 
and  in  other  times,  turn  the  scale  of  parties  in 
this  House,  and  introduce  amongst  us  persons  of 
the  highest  honour  and  highest  respectability, 
but  at  the  same  time  most  decidedly  hostile  to 
our  Church  Establishment.  * 

In  the  other  House  of  Parliament,  besides  the 
laro"e  and  immediate  admission  of  Roman  Catho- 

*  There  is  an  Official  Letter  of  the  late  Pope  Pitts  VIL  to  the 
Roman  Catholic  Bishops  of  Ireland,  in  the  year  1816,  in  which 
he  expressly  mentions  it  as  his  expectation  that  Emancipation 
will  include  the  Restoration  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Bishops  to 
the  House  of  Lords. — See  Phelan's  Evidence  before  the  Com- 
mons, p.  483-4,  and  before  the  Lords,  p.  922. 


91 

lie  members,  that  Number  will  most  certainly 
grow  with  that  Parliamentary  Influence  over  elec- 
tions, which  their  growing  property  and  the  urgent 
persuasion  of  their  Clergy  will  naturally  incline 
them,  and  enable  them  to  increase.  And  he 
knows  little  of  the  practice  of  Parliaments,  or  of 
public  life,  who  does  not  foresee,  that  in  every 
conflict  of  Parties,  such  a  body  of  men  acting 
uniformly  together,  will  be  courted  on  both  sides, 
and  their  particular  interests  will  be  advanced  by 
all  in  their  turn.  No  man  will  say,  that  if  this 
Bill  were  to  pass  to-day,  these  consequences 
would  take  place  to-morrow;  but  every  body 
must  agree,  that  the  same  Persons  and  Principles, 
if  let  in  to-day,  will  open  the  way  for  all  the  rest 
within  that  very  short  period  of  time  which  may 
be  accounted  as  "  immediate"  in  the  history  of 
nations. 

My  Lords,  to  prevent  the  Dangers  to  arise 
from  letting  them  in,  the  best  of  all  Securities  is 
to  keep  them  out.  But  you  must  be  prepared,  if 
you  do  let  them  in,  to  alter  at  once  the  Corona- 
tion Oath,  a  project  which  has  been  already 
started  elsewhere,  and  recommended.  You  must 
proceed  also  to  repeal  the  Corporation  and  Test 
Acts,  and  also  to  lay  open  the  highest  offices  of 
the  State  to  Roman  Catholics  and  Non-conform- 
ists of  every  description  ;  and  such  a  termination 
of  the  British  constitution,  few  of  us,  I  believe, 
would  desire  to  behold. 

If,  then,  these  claims  of  Emancipation,  as  it 


92 

is  called,  are  to  be  for  ever  refused,  is  there  no 
ray  of  Hope  left  for  misgoverned  Ireland  ?  Yes, 
much  Hope ;  and,  if  we  are  not  remiss  in  our 
duty,  immediate  Hope  ;  but,  as  I  think,  the  Eman- 
cipation must  be  of  a  very  different  sort. 

The  Emancipation  most  necessary  for  the  people 
of  Ireland,  is  an  Emancipation  from  Ignorance, 
from  that  Poverty  which  proceeds  from  want  of 
Employment ;  and  truth  compels  me  to  say  also, 
from  that  domestic  Oppression  and  Misery  under 
which  the  peasantry  is  in  too  many  instances 
suffering,  from  the  excessive  underletting  and 
subdivision  of  the  landed  property;  and  this 
Emancipation  it  is  the  duty  of  a  paternal  Govern- 
ment and  a  protecting  Parliament  to  provide. 

The  evils,  of  Ireland,  it  is  evident,  spring 
mainly  from  the  state  and  habits  of  the  Popula- 
tion. Enable  the  Labourer  to  derive  profit  from 
his  Industry,  be  it  manufacturing  or  agricultural, 
and  the  Labourer  who  can  by  his  industry  gain 
something  of  his  own  worth  saving,  will  be  slow 
^  to  risk  it  in  outrage  and  rebellion.  And  it  can- 
not be  too  often  repeated,  that  all  the  evidence 
concurs  in  ascribing  the  origin  *  at  least,  of  those 
outrages,  which  frighten  away  British  Capital 
and  British  Enterprize,  not  to  Religious  Differ- 
ences, however  much  artful  and  designing  men 
may  have  brought  them  forward  to  inflame  the 
people,  but  to  some  specific  and  local  grievance 

*  See  particularly  O'Sullivan's  Evidence  before  Committee  of 
House  of  Commons,  1825.  p.  457  ;  and  Lords,  p.  935. 


93 

in  respect  of  Property  and  the  distressed  state  of 
the  occupiers  and  tenants  of  the  soil.  And  in 
confirmation  of  this,  it  is  to  be  remarked,  that 
in  the  Northern  parts  of  Ireland,  where  the  Roman 
Catholics  and  Protestants  are  most  nearly  ba- 
lanced, *  and  where  such  conflict  might  be  more 
looked  for,  if  originating  in  religious  feelings,  such 
outrages  prevail  much  less;  because  no  such 
grievances  affecting  property  exist,  or  at  least 
not  in  an  equal  degree. 

To  remedy  evils  of  this  magnitude.  Laws  may 
do  much ;  but  much  also  lies  beyond  the  reach 
of  Law,  and  must  be  managed  by  measures  of 
slower  growth. 

By  Laws  you  may  regulate  and  place  on  a 
better  footing  the  relations  of  Landlord  and  Te- 
nant ;  by  Laws  you  may  provide  some  resource 
and  refuge  for  those  amongst  the  Poor  who  are 
disabled  from  work  by  age  or  infirmity;  by  Laws 
you  may  more  effectually  repress  Vagrancy  and 
Mendicity ;  by  Laws  you  may  reform  the  modes 
of  executing  the  process  of  Courts  of  Justice  by 
their  subordinate  officers;  and  by  Laws  you 
should  root  out  those  habits  of  perjury  and  ser- 
vility which  disgrace  alike  the  upper  and  the 
lower  ranks  of  life,  by  suppressing  the  present 
fraudulent  description  of  40,?.  Freeholders;  and 
this  last  great  evil  is  in  my  view  a  matter  wholly 

*  See  Appendix  to  Evidence  before  Lords,  p.  974,  as  to  Irish 
Roman  Catholic  and  Protestant  Population. 


/' 


94 


95 


separate  and  distinct  from  the  Concession  of 
Political  Power,  whatever  be  the  fate  of  those 
Claims. 

What  Laws  cannot  do  must  be  accomplished 
chiefly  by  spreading  an  improved  system  of  sound, 
sober  and  useful  Education  everywhere;  instruct- 
ing the  poorer  classes  in  just  principles  of  Religion 
and  Morality,  and  such  as  may  fit  them,  not  to 
become  the  passive  instruments  of  bigotry  and 
tyranny,  but  such  as  may  render  them  the  vir- 
tuous, enlightened  and  active  subjects  of  a  free 
Government ;  and  such  a  System  we  have  yet  to 
look  for  in  the  labours  of  those  Commissioners 
whose  Reports  are  not  yet  completed. 

These,  My  Lords,  are  amongst  the  Blessings 
which  you  may  yet  bestow  upon  Ireland,  and 
which  her  condition  imperiously  demands  at  your 
hands.  But  none  of  these  you  could  effect  whilst 
that  Rival  Parliament  existed  which  your  wisdom 
and  firmness  have  resolved  to  put  down  ;  nor  can 
any  such  Blessings  be  hoped  for  hereafter,  if  that 
monstrous  and  portentous  Power  should  again  lift 
up  its  head ;  and  I  speak  it  with  sorrow,  but 
with  a  well-grounded  belief,  when  I  state,  that 
even  now  that  Power  is  not  dead,  but  sleepeth. 

My  Lords,  to  close  the  whole  of  these  re- 
marks, with  which  I  have  too  long  trespassed 
upon  your  attention,  I  would  say,  upon  a  Bill 
of  this  importance,  which  embraces  the  whole 
of  the  United  Kingdom,  and  is  not  confined  to 


f 


Ireland  alone  ;  which  embraces  England,  although 
we  have  had  no  information  whatever  before  us 
respecting  her  Roman  Catholic  Ecclesiastical  Au- 
thorities or  Establishments ;  which  embraces  Scot- 
land, although  such  a  Bill  cannot  touch  it  with- 
out violating  the  Act  of  Union ;  I  would  say, — 
Surrender  not  vour  actual  and  known  state  and 
condition,  for  prospective,  contingent,  untried  and 
unknown  advantages  ; — Discontent  not  the  large 
majority  of  the  Protestants  of  the  United  King- 
dom, to  gratify  the  less  numerous  body  of  Roman 
Catholics; — and  Yield  not  to  intimidation,  past 
or  to  come ;  For  you  must  not  think  that  those 
whose  Declarations  have  been  all  but  Insurrec- 
tionary within  the  last  few  months,  have  changed 
their  Purpose  because  they  have  changed  their 
language ;  but  act  upon  the  wise  exhortation  of 
the  Noble  Earl  at  the  head  of  His  Majesty's  go- 
vernment,* which  he  pressed  upon  your  considera- 
tion four  years  ago,  when  a  measure  of  the  like 
sort  was  before  you,  namely,  *'  to  remove  no  land- 
marks, but  to  keep  all  bodies  of  His  Majesty's 
Subjects  in  their  proper  places,  as  they  now 
stand." 

Let  this  House,  My  Lords,  adhering  to  the 
wisdom  of  its  former  decision,  and  seeing  how 
nearly  the  opinions  of  the  Other  House  of  Parlia- 
ment are  balanced,  firmly  resolve  to  keep  the 
settled  Constitution  of  the  country  upon  its  exist- 
ing basis ;  and  declare  once  more,  by  its  deci- 

*  The  Earl  of  Liverpool. 


96 

sion  this  night,  that  it  refuses,  as  I  hope  and 
trust  it  ever  will  refuse,  to  grant  to  His  Majesty's 
Roman  Catholic  subjects  any  Further  Political 

Power. 

Therefore,  My  Lords,  I  shall  beg  leave  to  move 
an  Amendment  to  the  original  motion,  by  leaving 
out  the  word  ''  now,"  for  the  purpose  of  adding 
the  words  "  this  day  six  months." 

After  Debate,— -upon  the  Question  put,  ^'Tliat  this  Bill  be  now 
read  a  second  time,"  the  House  divided ; — 

Content,    84;   Proxies,  46.     Total  130 
Not  Content,  113;     65.       —    178 


97 


> 


Majority  against  the  Bill,     48 


VI. 


On  the  lOfk  of  June,  1828.— Upon  the  Motion  made  by  the 
Marquess  of  Lansdowne,  to  concur  in  the  Resolution  of  The  House 
of  Commons,  ''  That  it  is  Expedient  to  consider  the  State  of  the 
Laws  affecting  His  Majesty's  Roman  Catholic  Subjects  in  Great 
Britain  and  Ireland,  with  a  view  to  such  a  final  and  conciliatory 
Adjustment  as  may  be  conducive  to  the  Peace  and  Strength  of 
the  United  Kingdom,  to  the  Stability  of  the  Protestant  Establish- 
ment, and  to  the  general  Satisfaction  and  Concord  of  all  Classes 
of  His  Majesty's  Subjects/'  The  Lord  Colchester  rose,  and  spoke 
as  follows : — 

My  Lords, 
Although  this  important  subject  has  frequently- 
undergone  discussion  in  Parliament  durino-  the 
last  twenty  years,  and  although  the  proo-ress  of 
the  present  debate  has  not  produced  much  new 
matter  either  of  fact,  or  of  argument,  nevertheless, 
in  deference  to  the  Opinion  of  the  House  of  Com- 
mons, expressed  in  a  Resolution  formally  com- 
municated to  us,  I  am  desirous  of  stating  briefly 
and  plainly  the  reasons  which  oblige  me  to  refuse 
my  consent  to  the  present  Motion. 

The  Form  of  proceeding  by  which  this  Question 
has  been  introduced  to  our  notice  has  indeed  a 
character  of  Novelty ;  but  I  think  that  even  this 

II 


98 

merit  cannot  contribute  much  to  its  success. 
Year  after  year,  specific  and  detailed  Measures 
have  been  presented  to  us,  with  Securities,  and 
without  Securities,  and  of  every  various  kind 
which  would  be  thought  likely  to  facilitate  their 
favourable  reception ;  and  because  all  these  have 
successively  failed,  it  seems  now  to  be  thought, 
by  a  singular  process  of  reasoning,  that  this  House 
may  consistently  adopt  this  measure  as  a  whole, 
of  which  it  had  hitherto  rejected  every  assignable 

Part. 

The  substantial  purpose  of  this  Resolution,  to 
which  our  Concurrence  is  desired,  under  whatever 
aspect  it  may  be  exhibited,  is  to  make  a  great  and 
essential  change  in  our  Constitution;  and,  in   a 
Protestant  State,  to  give  equal  Political  Powers 
to  the  professors  of  another  form  of  Religion,  who 
are  bound  in  conscience  and  duty  to  endeavour  to 
destroy  our  own.    And  if  to  preserve  the  Religious 
peace  of  the  country  be  a  State  concern,  as  it 
unquestionably  is,   that  object  surely  cannot  be 
attained  by  putting  equal  arms  into  the  hands  of 
the  Defenders  of  its  established  Constitution,  and 
also  of  its  Assailants. 

Of  such  a  change,  however,  as  that  which  is 
now  contemplated,  let  us  examine  more  dis- 
tinctly, and  by  the  standard  of  Political  Expe- 
diency, what  are  the  probabilities  of  advantage 
which  it  holds  out  to  the  Protestant  portion  of 
the  United  Kingdom ;  what  would  be  its  advan- 
tage specially  to  Ireland ;  and  what  benefits  would 


99 

be  derived  from  adopting  the  policy  of  Foreign 
States  placed  in  a  similar  situation. 

To  the  Protestant  portion  of  the  United  King- 
dom, how  can  such  a  change  be  beneficial  or  even 
indifferent?  Is  it  to  the  Established  Church? 
Is  it  to  the  Protestant  Dissenters  ? 

Can  those  of  the  Established  Church  desire 
to  see  a  Rival  Hierarchy  introduced  with  equal 
authority,  and  exercising  a  legalized  jurisdiction 
over  the  different  classes  of  inhabitants  in  each 
diocese?  or  to  see  a  new  principle  of  religious 
difference  introduced  into  every  Corporate  Elec- 
tion ?  or  to  introduce  into  the  formation  of  Parlia- 
ment, and  the  conduct  of  Parliamentary  affairs,  a 
new  combination  of  persons,  hovering  and  shifting 
from  side  to  side,  as  the  contending  parties  of  the 
day  may  happen  to  court  their  alliance,  and 
purchase  their  occasional  aid  by  increasing  their 
lasting  preponderance  ? 

In  the  next  place,  can  such  a  change  be 
desired  by  the  Protestants  who  Dissent  from  the 
Established  Church,  after  that  casual  bond  is 
dissolved  which  recently  united  them  with  the 
Roman  Catholics,  in  pursuit  of  an  object  which, 
so    far    as    regards    the    Dissenters,    no    longer 

exists  ? 

The  Protestant  Dissenters  are  an  intelligent 
and  well-informed  class  of  men ;  and  they  well 
know  that,  of  all  Christian  sects,  they  and  their 
tenets  are  most  obnoxious  to  Rome.  They  well 
know  the  spirit  of  Encroachment  which  actuates 

H   2 


I- 


100 

that  Church  in  the  pursuit  of  Power  once  placed 
within  its  reach.  They  well  know  the  formidable 
character  of  that  Power  over  the  minds  and 
actions  of  those  whom  it  governs ;  that  the 
Priest,  armed  with  the  tyranny  of  Confession, 
and  the  terrors  of  Excommunication,  appears  to 
his  servile  followers  as  their  God  ;  and  that  in 
prostrate  subjection  to  the  Priest,  no  Roman 
Catholic  can  (in  the  ordinary  phrase)  say,  that 
his  soul  is  his  own.  It  is  impossible  that  Pro- 
testant Dissenters  can  desire  to  see  such  a  Domi- 
nation re-established,  of  which  they  must  be  the 
first  victims. 

Much  has  been  said  in  this  debate  of  the  Anti- 
quated state  of  the  Doctrines  of  the  Church  of 
Rome,  and  the  mitigation  of  their  rigour  by  those 
who  profess  them  in  modern  times.  But,  my 
Lords,  all  Europe  has  witnessed  within  the  scope 
even  of  the  present  century,  and  within  the  last 
twenty  years,  the  most  mischievous  Doctrines  of 
the  Church  of  Rome,  politically  mischievous, 
proclaimed  and  re-asserted  by  the  highest  Roman 
Catholic  authorities. 

The  last  Sovereign  Pontiff,  in  his  circular 
letter  of  1808,  addressed  to  the  Foreign  Ministers 
then  resident  in  Rome,  upon  the  subject  of  reli- 
gious worship  in  France,  declares  that  the  Church 
of  Rome  abhors  toleration;*  and  in  his  circular 
of  the  same  year,  addressed  to  his  Cardinals  and 

*  "  Relation   de  ce  qui  s'est  passe   a   Rome,  &c."     12mo^ 
Londres,  1812. — vol.  i.  p.  43,  193. 


'"i  - 

i'- 


^fSff' 


^ 


101 

clergy  throughout  Italy,  prohibits  them  from  taking 
any  oaths  of  unqualified  allegiance  to  other  Sove- 
reigns. * 

In  England  the  Vicar-Apostolic  and  Roman 
Catholic  clergy  of  the  Midland  district  in  1821, 
by  a  solemn  judgment f  delivered  upon  the  Bills 
then  depending  in  Parliament,  declared  that  no 
Roman  Catholic  could,  upon  oath,  disavow  the 
Deposing  power,  nor  disclaim  their  desire  and 
endeavour  to  weaken,  disturb,  and  overthrow  the 
Protestant  Religion ;  not  indeed  the  Protestant 
Church  Establishment ;  but  the  one  overthrown, 
how  long  the  other  would  survive,  your  Lordships 
cannot  be  at  a  loss  to  decide. 

And  the  Reports  of  the  Commission  of  Edu- 
cation in  Ireland  in  1827  clearly  prove  that  the 
Dispensing  power  as  to  Oaths  is  still  maintained 
in  its  fullest  extent,  and  without  any  practical 
limitation. J 

With  respect  to  the  distinction  between  Spi- 

*  Ibid.  vol.  i.  p.  97. 

-}-  Dated  Wolverhampton,  13th  March,  1821,  and  signed 
R.  R.  /.  Milner,  Vic.  Apost.  Rev.  Walter  Blount,  Arch.  Priest, 
Rev.  William  Benson,  Sec.  And  thus  it  was  laid  down  by  Bellar- 
mine,  "  Itaque  si  tales  Principes  non  conentur  fideles  a  fide  avertere 
possunt  quid  am  per  Ecclesiam  privari  dominio ;  tamen  Ecclesia  non 
semper  id  facit,vel  quia  vires  non  habet,vel  quia  non  j  udicat  expedire. 
At  si  iidem  Principes  conentur  avertere  populum  a  fide,  possunt 
et  debent  privari  suo  dominio." — Bellarmine,  Recognitio  Libro- 
rum  de  Summo  Pontifice,     Ingoldstadt,  1608,  p.  44. 

t  Eighth  Report  of  Commissioners  on  Education,  p.  155,  171. 
283,  &c. 


»te<Hi> 


•..  -y 


102 

ritual  and  Temporal  power,  so  much  relied  upon 
by  some  of  its  advocates,  the  Church  of  Rome 
herself  has  never  defined  it,  nor  ever  will.* 
Every  one  knows  that  Excommunication  is  an 
act  of  Spiritual  jurisdiction,  and  every  one  knows 
also,  that  its  effects  are  also  Temporal.  Upon 
the  latest  Parliamentary  Elections  in  Ireland  all 
such  distinctions  were  notoriously  disregarded ; 
and  Electioneering  exhortations,  and  Electioneer- 
ino-  denunciations,  were  delivered  by  the  Priests 
in  their  Chapels  and  from  their  Altars. 

Nor  if  we  look  to  the  individual  character  of 
those  by  whom  these  powers  are  in  our  own 
times  exercised,  and  by  whom  it  has  been  sup- 
posed that  their  rigour  might  be  mitigated,  shall 
we  discover  any  guarantee  for  such  moderation  ; 
neither  in  those  who  have  been  imported  from 
Coimbra  or  Salamanca,  nor  among  those  who  are 
educated  at  the  public  expense  in  the  Royal 
College  of  Maynooth,  where  prevarication  upon 
oath,  and  treasonable  cabal,  appear  to  have 
thriven  in  recent  times  most  abundantly,  t 

These,  My  Lords,  are  not  antiquated  and  by-gone 
Opinions  and  Doctrines,  they  are  all  promulgated 
and  spread  abroad  within  our  own  times  and  under 
our  own  observation.  We  have  the  Pontifical  cir- 
culars of  1808  throughout  Italy,  the  manifesto  of  the 
Priests  of  the  Midland  district  of  England  in  1821, 

*  Lord  Clarendon  on  Religion  and  Policy,  8vo.  p.  667. 
f  Eighth  Report  of  Corainissioners  ou  Education,  p.  298,  330, 
335,  &.C. 


I 


103 

the  whole  mass  of  recorded  Evidence  on  oath  taken 
beforeyour  Committee  upon  the  State  of  Ireland  in 
1825,  the  Reports  of  the  Education  Committee  in 
1827,  and  the  Glass  Books  then  and  still  in  use  to 
this  hour  at  Maynooth.  These  are  the  living  Doc- 
trines of  those  who  now  ask  you  for  more  power  to 
enforce  them  ;  these  are  the  springsof  action  which 
animate  all  their  exertions ;  and  in  these  I  cer- 
tainly do  not  see  the  materials  for  increasing  the 
Stability  of  the  Protestant  establishment  or  the 
general  Concord  and  Satisfaction  of  all  classes  of 
His  Majesty^s  subjects. 

If,  therefore,  this  projected  change  in  our  Con- 
stitution holds  out  no  expectation  or  probability 
of  benefit  to  the  Protestants  of  the  United  King- 
dom, whether  of  the  Established  Church,  or  to 
those  who  Dissent  from  it,  shall  we  nevertheless 
adopt  it  for  the  sake  of  those  separate  benefits 
and  blessings  so  much  insisted  on,  which  it  is  ex- 
pected to  bestow  upon  the  population  of  Ireland  ? 
Will  it,  in  fact,  tranquillize  Ireland  ? 

For  the  tranquillity  of  Ireland,  it  has  ever  ap- 
peared to  me  that  other  measures,  widely  differ- 
ent from  this  project,  are  urgently  and  indispens- 
ably necessary. 

In  the  first  place,  let  security  for  Life  atid  Pro- 
perty be  estabUshed  by  the  strong  arm  of  the  law  ; 
so  that  no  Gentleman  or  Householder  in  Ireland 
need  to  barricado  his  dwelling  before  the  suil 
goes  down,  in  order  that  he  and  his  children  may 
sleep  in  safety.     For  it  is  matter  of  just  reproach. 


104 


/ 


that  no  Administration,  ever  since  we  became 
one  Nation  by  the  Union,  has  ever  discharged 
this  first  and  paramount  duty  of  every  civilized 
State  towards  its  subjects.  Let  this  blessing, 
therefore,  be  no  longer  delayed;  and  let  there  be 
a  prompt,  steady,  uniform,  vigilant,  and  effectual 
execution  of  the  Laws  to  protect  the  peaceable 
and  industrious  of  all  classes ;  for,  **  no  people 
under  the  sun  (it  has  been  truly  said)  *  love  equal 
and  indifferent  justice  better  than  the  Irish." 
And  let  the  Illustrious  Person,  now  happily  at  the 
head  of  His  Majesty's  Government,  distinguish 
the  aera  of  his  power,  and  add  this  to  the  other 
glories  of  his  public  life,  by  extending  to  the  in- 
habitants of  what  is  more  peculiarly  his  native 
country,  the  same  shield  of  Civil  Protection  which 
makes  Life  and  Property  secure  in  every  other 
part  of  the  British  empire. 

Until  Life  and  Property  are  secure,  it  is  in  vain 
to  expect  that  British  Capital,  so  often  and  so 
earnestly  invoked,  but  hitherto  invoked  in  vain, 
will  ever  visit  the  shores  of  Ireland.  But  when 
every  man  may  be  confident  that  he  shall  reap  in 
safety  the  fruits  of  his  own  toil,  Enterprize  will 
spring  up  in  every  direction.  Let  him  but  find 
the  market  of  England  open  for  his  recompense, 
without  a  rival  importation  of  Foreign  produce  to 
undersell  him,  and  Tillage  will  spread  itself  over 
lands  hitherto  uncultivated  ;  and  it  will  be  found 
better  policy  for  our  domestic  wealth  and  inde- 

*  Sir  John  Davies'  Historical  Tracts,  8vo.  p.  227. 


I 


f 


105 

pendence,  to  seek  our  supplies  of  subsistence 
from  Ireland  than  from  Poland,  or  from  any  other 
foreign  country  on  the  continent  of  Europe.  And 
the  surplus  industry  which  Tillage  or  the  exten- 
sion of  Manufactures  may  not  at  first  call  into  im- 
mediate activity,  may  surely  be  turned  to  account 
by  employing  it  for  a  time  upon  the  execution  of 
Public  Works  for  the  agricultural  and  commer- 
cial improvement  of  the  country ;  to  be  set  on 
foot,  indeed,  at  the  outset  by  Public  aid,  but  that 
aid  limited  at  the  same  time  by  the  condition  of  a 
due  share  of  Local  Contribution  ;  works,  such  as 
have,  within  the  last  five-and-twenty  years,  by 
similar  means,  so  signally  improved  the  Northern 
Districts  of  Scotland. 

Employment,  as  was  truly  said  by  the  Noble 
Duke  at  the  head  of  His  Majesty's  Government, 
in  the  late  discussion  upon  the  distressed  state 
of  Ireland,  is  the  great  desideratum  for  the 
superabundant  population  of  Ireland  ;  and  that 
Principle  being  adopted,  we  may  be  assured  that 
the  vigilance  and  activity  of  His  Majesty's  Go- 
vernment will  embrace  the  earliest  practicable 
opportunity,  and  the  best  Practical  means,  for 
carrying  that  Principle  into  full  execution. 

To  accomplish  the  tranquillity  of  Ireland,  what 
is  falsely  and  absurdly  called  Roman  Catholic 
Emancipation,  is  not  the  true  and  appropriate 
remedy. 

The  disturbances  which  have  so  long  agitated, 
and  which  still  unhappily  exist  in  many  parts  of 


106 

Ireland,  have  their  root  in  causes  widely  different. 
They  are  proved,  by  the  sworn  evidence  taken 
three  years  ago  before  your  own  Committee,  to 
arise  out  of  the  state  of  Property,  and  the  state 
<  "  N  ciety  in  those  districts  ;  and  out  of  the  rest- 
less endeavours  of  the  miserable  Occupant  to  in- 
vade and  control  the  rights  of  the  lawful  Owner ; 
to  prescribe  who  shnll,  or  shall  not.  be  liis  tenant; 
whom  he  shall,  or  shall  not,  employ  as  his  cotter 
and  his  labourer;  and  the  l^ni  mcipation  which  is 
really  nearest  to  the  peasant's  heart,  is  Emanci- 
pation from  the  payment  ot  Kent  and  Tithes.  To 
relieve  him  from  their  unreasonable  pressure, 
much  has  been  done  of  late  by  the  enactment  of 
many  beneficial  laws,  and  mainly  by  the  Tithe 
Composition  Act ;  but  much  more  remains  to  be 
done  by  steady,  cautious,  and  prudent.  Legisla- 
tion; with  a  constant  and  persevering  attention 
to  the  wants  of  the  people. 

And  although  Religious  Differences  may,  and 
do,  too  frequently  exasperate  the  feelings  of  the 
people,  and  aggravate  these  disturbances  and  out- 
rages, that  they  are  not  the  generating  cause  of 
their  existence  is  demonstrably  proved  by  the  fact, 
that  those  outrages  prevail  more  in  the  Central 
and  Southern  parts  of  Ireland,  where  the  popula- 
tion are  almost  all  uniformly  Roman  Catholic,  and 
less  in  the  Northern  counties,  where  the  numbers 
of  each  persuasion  being  more  equally  balanced, 
the  conflict  might  be  most  naturally  expected.  I 
would  ask  from  many  now  present  who  know  it, — 


\ 


/ 


107 

Is  it  not  in  the  Central  and  Southern  counties 
that  the  Roman  Catholic  Proprietor  barricadoes  his 
house  against  the  Roman  Catholic  insurgent  ?  and 
are  not  the  habitations,  the  stackyards,  and  the 
cattle,  of  Roman  Catholic  cwncrs,  destroyed 
nightly  by  Roman  Catholic  aggressors  ? 

Unhappily,  the  Roman  Catholic  Priests  will 
not  consent  to  the  joint  Educution  ui  Human 
Catholics  and  Protestants,  even  in  matters  belong- 
ing to  our  Common  Faith;  a  mea>ure  wiiich,  if 
adopted,  might  gradually  and  greatly  irr 
these  evils,  and  perhaps  ultimately  e\tir|  at 

And  unhappily,  also,  these  >i^\niua\  pas- 
tors, the  Roman  Catholic  Priest^,  liave  ma  ie 
themselves  the  Temporal  agents  of  that  mon- 
strous political  engine  of  mischief,  the  tinman 
Catholic  Association,  which,  in  defiance  of  the 
law,  a  law  framed  by  a  Noble  and  Learned  Lord 
now  present  amongst  us,  and  who  may  explain 
to  us  the  causes  of  its  failure,  has  established  a 
Rival  Parliament  in  the  Metropolis  of  Ireland,  ut- 
tering daily  its  unrestrained  libels  and  menaces 


UiJ... 


I  em 


I  !   I 


against  the  Church,  the  Parliament,  ihr 
vernment,  and  Royalty  itself;  apparently  with 
the  countenance,  and  certainly  without  the  lei ao- 
bation,  of  the  Local  Government. 

Beyond  all  this,  it  remains.  My  Lords,  for  most 
serious  consideration,  how  far  the  tranquillity  of 
Ireland  would  be  ensured,  even  if  all  that  is 
demanded  by  the  Roman  Catholics  were  granted. 
And  whether  Discord  of  another  and  more  for 


108 


midable  character  would  not  arise,  when  the  Ro- 
man Catholic  population,  armed  with  new  privi- 
leges and  new  authorities,  were  urged  by  their 
Priests  into  collision  with  all  the  Rank  and  Pro- 
perty of  Ireland,  nine-tenths  of  which  are  now 
vested  in  Protestant  Proprietors.  May  we  not 
rather  expect  that  terror  and  dismay  would  spring 
up  from  another  source,  and  be  spread  still 
further  and  wider ;  and  instead  of  arriving  at  the 
termination  of  your  evils,  whether  you  would  not 
only  be  opening  the  commencement  of  new  and 
heavier  disasters  ?  far  indeed  from  producing 
"  peace  and  strength,  or  concord  and  satisfac- 
tion, to  all  classes  of  His  Majesty's  subjects." 

With  such  well-founded  Apprehensions,  and 
such  powerful  Reasons  for  rejecting  the  present 
motion,  as  derived  from  the  Domestic  view  of  this 
question,  we  are  desired,  however,  to  shake  off  our 
English  prejudices,  and  borrow  at  least  some 
share  of  wisdom  from  the  Foreign,  and  more 
enlightened  Policy  of  other  Protestant  nations 
on  the  Continent  of  Europe. 

The  solution  of  all  our  difficulties  is  presented 
to  us  by  a  recommendation,  to  open  a  direct  In- 
tercourse with  the  See  of  Rome,  and  by  that  Al- 
liance, to  settle  matters  in  a  manner  satisfactory 
to  all  parties. 

Upon  this  Project,  it  is  to  be  remarked  at  once, 
that  it  is  a  full,  frank,  and  complete  admission  of 
the  fact  hitherto  so  strenuously  denied  ;  namely, 
**  the  Divided  Allegiance"  of  our  Roman  Catho- 


109 

lie  fellow-subjects;  and  the  Sovereign  of  these 
Realms  is  to  take  to  his  aid  the  Sovereign  Pon- 
tiff of  the  Church  of  Rome,  to  help  him  in  the 
Government  of  his  own  Subjects. 

Be  it  so.  And  then  we  have  exhibited  to  us 
also  the  Forms  practised byother  Protestant  States 
for  this  purpose,  and  the  Example  of  its  salutary 
effects  in  their  dominions,  as  a  torch  of  expe- 
rience put  into  our  hands  to  light  us  on  our  way. 

As  to  Form,  a  Concordatum,  it  is  said,  can  only 
subsist  between  the  See  of  Rome  and  Roman 
Catholic  powers  ;  and  our  proceeding  is  to  be  by 
sending  an  Ambassador  to  request  a  Bull ;  for 
which  it  will  be  seen  that  we  are  to  pay,  however, 
by  Stipulations  on  our  part. 

The  leading  Examples  set  before  us  are,  not 
Protestant  Sweden  ;  for  there  the  Exclusion  of  Ro- 
man Catholics  from  Political  Power,  from  seats 
in  the  Diet,  and  from  all  high  offices  in  the  State, 
is  thought  to  be  the  best  guarantee  ;  but  Prussia, 
Hanover,  and  the  Netherlands  are  the  Exam- 
ples;   and  all  of  these  are  new  and  untried. 

As  to  Prussia,  the  date  of  its  arrangement  with 
the  See  of  Rome  is  1821  ;  under  which  the  So- 
vereign appoints  to  the  Bishoprics,  a  power 
which  we  have  been  told  long  since  would  be 
inadmissible  in  Ireland,  even  though  confirmed 
by  the  Pope;*  and  it  is  stipulated  also,  that 
Roman  Catholics  are  to  pay  no  Tithes  to  Protest- 
ants.   Will  this  Stipulation  increase  the  Stability 

*  See  Dr.  Doy/e'*  Evidence  before  the  Lords  Committee,  1825, 
p.  366. 


110 


ll 

i 


of  the  Protestant  Church  in  England  or  in  Ire- 
land? or  will  it  be  acceptable  to  the  Lay  Impro- 
priators in  either  part  of  the  United  Kingdom  ? 
In  Hanover,  the  date  of  the  Papal  Bull  is  1824. 
Here  the  Protestant  Sovereign  has  undertaken, 
"  Rex  spospondit,"  to  endow  the  Roman  Catho- 
lic Bishoprics,  and  Deans,  and  Chapters,  with 
Lands,  or  Stipends  of  suitable  amount.  And  will 
a  British  minister  be  prepared  to  bring  down  a 
Recommendation  from  the  Crown;  or  will  a  Pro- 
testant Parliament  be  disposed  to  grant  thousands 
upon  thousands  of  public  money,  for  the  Endow- 
ment of  a  Roman  Catholic  Church  Establishment? 
having,  in  the  two  first  years  of  the  administration 
of  the  Noble  Marquess  opposite  to  me,*  curtailed 
the  former  grants  for  building  and  repairing  Pro- 
testant churches  in  Ireland  from  30,000/,  a-year 
to  10,000/.  a-year,  and  finally  suppressed  that 
Grant  altogelher;  although  numberless  applica- 
tions for  new  Churches  were  then  depending  be- 
fore the  Board  of  First  Fruits ;  and,  although  it 
was  well  known,  and  has  been  established  upon 
evidence  before  Your  Committees,  that,  wherever 
a  new  Church  was  built,  a  full  Protestant  con2:re- 
gation  immediately  flowed  into  it.  Moreover  this 
precedent  does  not  greatly  recommend  itself  to 
our  favour  when  we  find  that  the  Spiritual  Su- 
premacy of  the  See  of  Rome  is  fully  asserted 
in  the  conclusion  of  the  Bull  for  the  kinirdom  of 
Hanover,  with  the  customary  maledictions  against 
all  who  shall  resist  it. 

*  The  Marquess  VVellesley. 


Ill 


/ 


> 


The  King  of  the  Netherlands  received  his  Bull 
in  the  autumn  of  last  year:  and  in  his  Dominions 
also  Roman  Catholic  Bishoprics,  and  Deans,  and 
Chapters,  are  to  be  established  and  endowed  at 
the  expense  of  the  State ;  and,  what  is  worthy  of 
remark,  the  Roman  Catholic  Bishops  may  sit 
there,  in  the  Upper  House  of  Parliament ;  a  pre- 
tension insisted  upon  also  by  the  late  Pope  with 
respect  to  our  Parliament,  in  his  Letter  of  1816, 
to  the  Roman  Catholic  Bishops  of  Ireland,  which 
states  his  expectation  that  they  would,  as  a  con- 
sequence of  this  restoration  to  their  other  rights, 
be  restored  also  to  their  Seats  in  this  House.  * 

Of  all  these  Examples  which  we  are  required 
to  follow,  the  oldest  is  of  Seven  years  date ;  the 
next  is  Four  years  old  ;  and  the  last  not  yet  nine 
Months  of  age  ;  and  all  of  them  inapplicable,  or 
adverse,  to  the  History,  Laws,  Manners,  and  Ha- 
bits of  this  Country  :  a  slender  foundation  for  such 
a  mighty  change ! 

These  are  the  General  Grounds  upon  which  I 
cannot  agree  to  the  motion  of  the  Noble  Mar- 
quess, as  explained  in  his  opening  speech  :  and 
moreover,  I  specially  object, 

1st.  That  this  is  a  direct  step  towards  the  over- 
throw of  the  Reformation  in  this  country,  by  re- 
establishing in  it  the  Jurisdiction  of  the  See  of 
Rome. 

2d.  That  it  is  contrary  to  the  Oath  of  the  So- 
vereign, who  is  sworn  to  maintain,  not  only  the 

*  See  Report  of  the  Lords  Committee^  1825,  p.  792. 


112 


/ 


Protestant  Episcopal  Church,  but  also  the  Pro- 
testant Religion.  And  although  the  Earl  of  Li- 
verpool did,  in  the  last  debate  upon  this  subject, 
in  1825,  state  his  opinion,  that  the  Concession  of 
any  particular  degree  of  Political  Power  to  Roman 
Catholics  might  or  might  not,  according  to  the 
nature  of  the  case  proposed,  infringe  upon  the  ob- 
ligation contained  in  the  Coronation  Oath,  he  did 
distinctly  declare,  that  in  his  judgment  to  Esta- 
blish and  Endow  the  Roman  Catholic  Religion 
within  this  Realm  would  be  a  direct  infraction  of 
that  Oath.  You  would  have,  therefore,  to  alter 
that  Oath  before  you  could  make  such  an  En- 
dowment :  and  can  you  alter  it  as  to  the  Sovereign 
who  has  taken  it?  Or  must  you  postpone  the  effect 
of  such  alteration  to  the  time,  (and  distant  may 
that  be)  the  time  of  a  Successor  to  the  Throne  ? 

3rd.  That  to  acknowledge  the  Supremacy  sti- 
pulated for  by  the  Roman  Pontiff,  as  in  Hanover, 
you  must  alter  the  Oath  of  Supremacy,  now 
taken  by  His  Majesty's  subjects,  in  which  they 
swear,  that  no  Foreign  Prelate  hath,  or  ought  to 
have,  any  Jurisdiction,  Power,  Superiority,  Pre- 
eminence, or  Authority,  within  these  Realms. 

4th.  As  to  equalizing  the  Political  Privileges  of 
Roman  Catholics  and  Protestants  throughout  the 
British  empire,  I  object :— That  you  cannot  extend 
the  Concession  of  Political  Power  to  the  Roman 
Catholics  of  Scotland  without  violating  the  Act  of 
Union  with  Scotland,  which  excludes  all  Roman 
Catholics  from  being  Electors,  or  Elected  to  seats 


•.»      -if    . 


113 

in  Parliament ;— That  to  introduce  the  Roman 
Catholics  of  England  and  Ireland  into  Parliament, 
whilst  you  exclude  the  Roman  Catholics  of  Scot- 
land, would  change  the  relative  situation  of  Scot- 
land, and  place  it  in  circumstances  different  from 
those  on  the  faith  of  which  that  compact  was 
founded;  And  that  to  introduce  English  Roman 
Catholics  into  Parliament,  you  must  repeal  a 
whole  series  of  Acts,  from  30  Car.  2nd  to  9  Geo. 
II.,  including  some  of  the  most  solemn  parts  of 
the  Bill  of  Rights. 

Objecting  upon  all  these  grounds  to  the  pro- 
posed Resolution,  and  its  consequences,  I  would 
say,  as  has  been  said  before  in  this  House,  "  Re- 
move no  more  Land-marks,  but  keep  all  Orders  of 
His  Majesty's  Subjects  in  their  present  Places 
and  Stations,  as  they  now  stand." 

And  when  this  Question  of  Concurrence  shall 
be  finally  brought  to  the  Vote,  I  therefore  must 
and  shall  say,  most  decidedly,    ''  Not  Content:' 

After  Debate,  upon  the  Question  put;— '^  That  this  House  do 
Concur  in  the  said  Resolution ;"  the  House  divided  ; 
Content,    92;  Proxies,  45— Total  137 
Not  Content,  123;   ■ 59 182 


Majority  against  the  Resolution     45 


FINIS. 


} 


LONDON : 
IBOTSON    AND   PALMER,  I'RIKIERb,  SAVOy-STREET,  STRa KD. 


~/l 


ft! 


V 


THE  POLITICAL  CLAIMS 


OF 


THE   ROMAN   CATHOLICS. 


\ 


/. 


